Home still getting surges after driving deeper ground rods. Is there a grounding issue at the pole?

[GroundGuy]

My home has been getting hit by surges for years now and is still having surges come in after beefing up my single point earth ground and installing whole home surge protectors.
I'm in Florida, so a lot of thunder storms, and the soil is very sandy. I'm 50ft above sea level.

I'll start with how my ground and surge protection is set up:

1. I have two 20ft 3/4in copper ground rods (each 20ft rod is 2 10ft rods stacked with a coupler) for my single point earth ground for my main service panel.
   The first rod is connected to the main service panel with #4 copper wire 6ft long.
   The second rod is about 15ft from the first rod and they are bonded together with #4 copper wire.
   My home's foundation rebar is bonded to the first rod.
   
   
2. I have a Siemens FS140 Type 2 SPD installed in the first slot in the mains panel with the shortest leads possible and no sharp bends.
   
   
3. The subpanel in my home has a Siemens BoltShield QSPD2A065P Type 2 SPD in the first slot with the shortest leads possible as well.
   
   
4. My sensitive electronics are on a ZeroSurge 2R15W Series-Mode Type 3 surge protector that is over 30ft from the breaker panel.
   
   
5. I have no other wires or metal piping coming into the home.
   The internet is fiber optic and main water is PVC. There is not a well pump wire.
   The longest exterior wire is about 6ft to the air conditioner.

My power pole with the transformer is 100ft away from my meter and it only feeds my neighbor and me. The service runs underground to my meter.
This power pole is branched out 250ft from the main power line going down the road.

It appears the surge arrester on the transformer is bonded to the casing.
The casing appears to be bonded to the power pole's ground wire which is also bonded to the neutral and pole's stabilizer wire.
The power pole's ground wire is butt grounded, so there is no ground rod. The wire is wrapped under the pole.

1. Could my home's ground rods be such a lower impedance than the power pole's butt ground and causing a ground potential difference issue?
2. Is there a way an electrician can measure this from the ground wire?
3. Would a ground rod at the power pole solve this issue?
4. Could there be other issues with the utility's power line?

I've created many tickets with my utility company (FPL) and called many times over the past year. I keep getting the run around and no techs are sent out to troubleshoot. Electricians only deal with the residential side of the home wiring and say my panel is set up correctly.

 

[jaggedben]

So, what exactly is the problem? You are still losing electronics to surges even with the surge protectors? Do the surge protectors still indicate they are providing protection or do they need replacement?

Are you contacting FPL because you think that the surges are coming from them and not from lightning? If so, why?

I'm thinking that your cheap option is to install more/higher rated surge protectors, and your expensive option is to consult an lightning protection professional. Your grounding system looks fine and well exceeds NEC requirements.

 

[letgomywago]

Something to look into is the neutral connection at the service. A floating neutral will cause surges when imbalanced loads pop up.

 

[GroundGuy]

So, what exactly is the problem? You are still losing electronics to surges even with the surge protectors? Do the surge protectors still indicate they are providing protection or do they need replacement?

Are you contacting FPL because you think that the surges are coming from them and not from lightning? If so, why?

I'm thinking that your cheap option is to install more/higher rated surge protectors, and your expensive option is to consult an lightning protection professional. Your grounding system looks fine and well exceeds NEC requirements.

The problem is I'm still losing electronics to surges.
The surge protectors' LEDs still indicate they are providing protection.

I'm contacting FPL to check that the grounding and lightning arrester at the pole are not compromised, as they have numerous ground runs and bonding going on at the top of the pole.

Something to look into is the neutral connection at the service. A floating neutral will cause surges when imbalanced loads pop up.

In the last picture it appears the overhead neutral is coupled to my neutral service wire and to the ground wire on the pole.
The neutral is hooked up to my meter.
The neutral and ground are tied at my main service panel. There are untied in my subpanel.

 

[jaggedben]

To the best of my understanding...

...

1. Could my home's ground rods be such a lower impedance than the power pole's butt ground and causing a ground potential difference issue?

Under normal operating circumstances, no.

[*]Is there a way an electrician can measure this from the ground wire?

Measure what exactly? If there's a voltage difference between the two points? An electrician probably could measure that if the utility pole's ground is accessible at the street level without disturbing the pole installation. I'm not sure what the point of this would be. If there were a large difference then someone would probably be experiencing other issues, like electric shock. The difference should be pretty low due to both grounds being connected to your neutral. See letgomywago's reply.

[*]Would a ground rod at the power pole solve this issue?

Very unlikely.

[*]Could there be other issues with the utility's power line?

I mean, theoretically, yes. But one would need evidence.

 

[electrofelon]

Could my home's ground rods be such a lower impedance than the power pole's butt ground and causing a ground potential difference issue?

That is an MGM distribution system. It is going to have extremely low resistance to Earth and will be connected to all the ground stuff at the pole (assuming everything is connected properly without failures).

I second jaggedben's question about what the problem is. How do you know you are getting surges? Is there damage? Do the spd's indicate a surge?

 

[LarryFine]

Do your SPDs come with a connected-equipment warranty? Read the fine print.

 

[hillbilly1]

It appears you are at end of the line, lightning surges usually travel down the line to the end. We have that problem here in the mountains because of a lot of “spur” lines. You said there were no other utilities other than fiber? Is the fiber armored? I had a customer that had armored fiber, and the armor was not bonded. Once the armor was bonded, the problem went away. They were blowing up the fiber conversion boxes all the time.

 

[GroundGuy]

It appears you are at end of the line, lightning surges usually travel down the line to the end. We have that problem here in the mountains because of a lot of “spur” lines. You said there were no other utilities other than fiber? Is the fiber armored? I had a customer that had armored fiber, and the armor was not bonded. Once the armor was bonded, the problem went away. They were blowing up the fiber conversion boxes all the time.

You, sir, may have solved part of the problem. I doubled checked my fiber cable and there is armor. It runs underground about 270ft into the field.
So the shield is probably picking up transients. I looked down the end of the fiber connector and do see some metal around the base of the glass.

Luckily the fiber line is buried next to the ground rod.
I assume you would have to carefully slice and peel back the outer jacket at the point near the ground rod, tightly wrap copper around it, and bond that to the first ground rod.

 

[petersonra]

The earth connection itself has very little to do with protection from surges. You can pound 100 ground rods and it likely won't change anything.

 

[infinity]

The earth connection itself has very little to do with protection from surges. You can pound 100 ground rods and it likely won't change anything.

I agree. The system that the OP has in place goes miles beyond what is required by the NEC. Although they're expensive you could invest in a high end SPD with a surge counter to keep track of number surge events at the service.

 

[TwistLock]

"The problem is I'm still losing electronics to surges."

Are these always the same electronics? Or whatever is plugged into certain circuits? Or just random?

 

[GroundGuy]

"The problem is I'm still losing electronics to surges."

Are these always the same electronics? Or whatever is plugged into certain circuits? Or just random?

It is both random and certain electronics. Mostly the AV receiver gets hit.
The recent surge took out a battery charger on one circuit, along with the AV receiver's HDMI and a computer's ethernet port that are on a second circuit.

To try to mitigate this further, I just bought a fully fiber optic HDMI cable that has no ground or metal connections between the two ends to decouple the AV receiver from the computer.
I'm also moving the subwoofer that's plugged into the AV receiver to be on the same circuit as the AV receiver. The computer was already on the same circuit.

I inspected both of these circuits and the hot, neutral, and ground are tightly connected at the panel and socket. There are no piercings in the wire along the majority of the stretch that is visible in the crawlspace. Measuring Hot to Ground does give 120V, so there isn't a complete break in ground.

I agree. The system that the OP has in place goes miles beyond what is required by the NEC. Although they're expensive you could invest in a high end SPD with a surge counter to keep track of number surge events at the service.

Now that would be a cool thing to count. Do you have a recommended brand/model surge counter to get?

 

[tom baker]

“more is better, you get what you pay for” Mike Holt
Suggest a more robust SPD at your panel, Leviton, Panamax. Some Leviton units have surge counters. Search forum for other recommendations
Also have a point of use SPD for electronics on branch circuits. The impedance of the branch circuit reduces the transit to the SPD

 

[Fred B]

First off, the device at the utility transformer is a lighting arrester simply designed to protect the utility equipment with really no or limited protection for customer equipment.
Second, you only show having a Type 2 surge and reference a Type 3 at the critical equipment. While good under normal conditions (utility transient surges) Lightning surges enter a whole other level. Getting Type 1 to start would help. Each SPD is only capable of reducing just so much of the surge allowing some to still pass. Most will aim to just get rid of enough that only the worst event will possibly get by, due to costs/benefit ratio.

With surge protection more is better, especially when dealing with very sensitive equipment. Each SPD added in line to each other will act to reduce the surge a little.
What is the surge rating and threshold on each of your SPD's?
Grounding electrodes being added beyond that required would do little to help if they are already legal.

Very critical components can be benefited by starting with a Type 1 at your service then a Type 2 at the distribution panels. Another Type 2 branch circuit SPD and finally an equipment Type 3 SPD at point of use. Getting and stacking SPDs that are designed and listed to work together can enhance overall protection.

Another question Has your fiber been connected to an intersystem bonding bridge? Surges entering via the communication systems can if not added into the protection system and a surge protection a surge can bypass the existing SPDs via the Communication system device.

 

[tom baker]

Fred’s post says in more detail what I quoted from Mike Holt.
Mike once said he had the best SPD. available and was still using electronic AV gear. Turned out the incoming CATV shield was not bonded at the house. Your issue may be the same

 

[GroundGuy]

First off, the device at the utility transformer is a lighting arrester simply designed to protect the utility equipment with really no or limited protection for customer equipment.
Second, you only show having a Type 2 surge and reference a Type 3 at the critical equipment. While good under normal conditions (utility transient surges) Lightning surges enter a whole other level. Getting Type 1 to start would help. Each SPD is only capable of reducing just so much of the surge allowing some to still pass. Most will aim to just get rid of enough that only the worst event will possibly get by, due to costs/benefit ratio.

With surge protection more is better, especially when dealing with very sensitive equipment. Each SPD added in line to each other will act to reduce the surge a little.
What is the surge rating and threshold on each of your SPD's?
Grounding electrodes being added beyond that required would do little to help if they are already legal.

Very critical components can be benefited by starting with a Type 1 at your service then a Type 2 at the distribution panels. Another Type 2 branch circuit SPD and finally an equipment Type 3 SPD at point of use. Getting and stacking SPDs that are designed and listed to work together can enhance overall protection.

Another question Has your fiber been connected to an intersystem bonding bridge? Surges entering via the communication systems can if not added into the protection system and a surge protection a surge can bypass the existing SPDs via the Communication system device.

Originally I thought that my Type 2 SPD made a Type 1 SPD redundant since I installed it directly after the main disconnect in my GE combo meter/load center panel.
But after looking into it more, it seems Type 1 SPD have a different Rise Time and Duration than Type 2 SPD.
Thank you for pointing out that I should look into getting a Type 1 SPD as well.

• Type 1: (10/350 µs) 25kA to 100kA
• Type 2: (8/20 µs) 20kA to 75kA

This article gave me a great breakdown of the differences between the 3 types of SPDs:

SPD Type 1 vs Type 2 vs Type 3

Surge protective device SPD Type 1, Type 2 and Type 3 unite for lightning defense, sharing features while each holding distinct attributes.

lsp.global

Siemens FS140 Type 2 in my main load panel specs:
VPR L-N: 600 V; L-G: 600 V; N-G: 600 V; L-L: 900 V
MCOV 150V – L-N, L-G, and N-G; 300V – L-L
Surge Spike Capacity 140,000 A
Response Time <1 nanosecond

Siemens BoltShield QSPD2A065P Type 2 in my sub panel specs:
VPR L-N: 600 V; L-G: 600 V; L-L: 1000 V
MCOV 150V
Surge Spike Capacity 65,000 A (per phase)
Response Time <1 nanosecond

ZeroSurge Type 3 SPD at device plug specs:
These are series-mode protectors instead of shunt-mode MOV protection, and as such don't have a clamp voltage rating.
*Wide Voltage Range (WVR) Technology operates over a voltage range of 85-175V.
Max Surge Voltage Let-through 130V above peak line voltage @ 6,000V/3,000A for ANSI C62.41 Category B3/C1

https://zerosurge.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/01/2R-Series-01-24.pdf

https://zerosurge.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/04/power_quality_conf_2002-1.pdf

My fiber line has not been bonded, as I just discovered today it does have metal armor shielding.
I will get this fiber shielding bonded directly to ground where it enters my home.

Now I just need to see if there's Type 1 SPD that are compatible with my GE combo meter panel.
Thank you everyone for the feedback so far. I'm learning a lot.

 

[GroundGuy]

I got the fiber cable's armor bonded to ground now.

 

[delaware74b]

Please correct me if I'm wrong, isn't the metal spacer on that split bolt connector in the wrong place? You don't want dissimilar metals directly touching (copper to aluminum or copper to steel) as this can cause electrolysis. In the pic, it should be bare copper, spacer, then the fiber bond.
FYI, copper to steel or iron connections (especially welded) are a thermocouple and create voltage based on temperature.

 

[infinity]

Please correct me if I'm wrong, isn't the metal spacer on that split bolt connector in the wrong place? You don't want dissimilar metals directly touching (copper to aluminum or copper to steel) as this can cause electrolysis. In the pic, it should be bare copper, spacer, then the fiber bond.
FYI, copper to steel or iron connections (especially welded) are a thermocouple and create voltage based on temperature.

Yes the spacer is typcially used when there are dissimilar metals. Is that the jacket stainless steel?

Also copper and steel can touch each other. We screw copper pigtails to metal boxes all of the time.