- Location
- Massachusetts
What I meant was here, here HVAC guys do not buy wire and cable, they are not allowed to do electrical work unless they hire a licensed electrician to pull the electrical permit and do the electrical work.
Honeywell MiniSplit Cable
- Thread starter augie47
- Start date
- Status
What I meant was here, here HVAC guys do not buy wire and cable, they are not allowed to do electrical work unless they hire a licensed electrician to pull the electrical permit and do the electrical work.
peter d
Senior Member
- Location
- New England
I was doing a job at a house where the HVAC contractor wired a mini split unit with plain rubber cord. When it came time for my inspection, the inspector noticed it and failed it. I told him it wasn't my work, and he said to let the HVAC contractor know then. The HVAC contractor decided to go to battle with the inspector because "they always do it that way and it's never been a problem before." They ended up having to change it out.
Saturn_Europa
Senior Member
- Location
- Fishing Industry
- Occupation
- Electrician Limited License NC, QMED Electrician
Great post. Crossing my fingers more uses are allowed for TC-ER in the future. I find it very versatile and easy to work with.
MasterTheNEC
CEO and President of Electrical Code Academy, Inc.
- Location
- McKinney, Texas
- Occupation
- CEO
LOL......I totally screwed that last post up...MODS you can delete it if you want because I got what I WANT it to say in 2020 backwards....sorry guys.
Greetings,
There is absolutely ZERO technical reasons why Type TC Cable can't be used within a structure without being in a raceway or on a cable tray system (other than just code alone). Type TC under UL 1277 is constructed no differently than Type SE-R under UL 854, except for the fiberglass binder tape found in SE-R. Binder material or fillers are not required in Type TC unless it is deemed needed to maintain roundness. This is left up to the manufacturers discretion of course.
Also important to note that to be used in the 2017 NEC new allowance for one and two families, the TC Cable has to contain both Power and Control conductors which is a poor excuse for saying the use has been "expanded". However, it was pushed by the generator manufacturers (beginning with a G) and was originally intended only to encompass the ability to install a TC Cable from the ATS to the Generator for the power and control in the same cable......but it has morphed into being used as a Mini-Split Cable. The advent of both power and control in such a cable is well........lets not argue that one until we get the NEC changes to say....
Anyway....TC Cable goes through the same crush and impact testing as Type MC (UL 1569) and usually has an sheathing twice as thick or more than traditional Type SE-R Cable. However, the notice that you can't use Type TC in a building like other nonmetallic cable systems is to me....a FARSE to the industry (if you happen to read my public input on the subject). Lucky for me the CMP also agreed that type TC Cable was like any other nonmetallic-sheathed cable type system so I expect the doors to open for its more expanded use in 2020.
Here is what the NEC CMP agreed on :
In One- and two-family dwelling units, Type TC-ER cable containing both power and control conductors that is identified for pulling through structural members shall be permitted. Type TC-ER cable used as interior wiring shall be installed per the requirements of Part II of Article 334.
Exception: Where used to connect a generator and associated equipment having terminals rated 75°C (140°F) or higher, the cable shall not be limited in ampacity by 334.80 or 340.80.
Informational Note No. 1: TC-ER cable that is suitable for pulling through structural members is marked “JP.”
Informational Note No. 2: See 725.136 for limitations on Class 2 or 3 circuits contained within the same cable with conductors of electric light, power, or Class 1 circuits.
HOWEVER...here is what is should have said....and will be proposed in 2020
In One- and two-family dwelling units, Type TC-ER cable identified for pulling through structural members shall be permitted. Type TC-ER cable used as interior wiring shall be installed per the requirements of Part II of Article 334 and Part II of Article 340.
Exception: Where used to connect a generator and associated equipment having terminals rated 75°C (140°F) or higher, the cable shall not be limited in ampacity by 334.80 or 340.80.
Informational Note No. 1: TC-ER cable that is suitable for pulling through structural members is marked “JP.”
Informational Note No. 2: See 725.136 for limitations on Class 2 or 3 circuits contained within the same cable with conductors of electric light, power, or Class 1 circuits.
Now that is just one public input....the other if accepted would revise 336.12(2) to not specifically reference raceways or cable trays.....while reworking 336.10 to allow it in any building where it meets the "JP" tests that are required.
Greetings,
There is absolutely ZERO technical reasons why Type TC Cable can't be used within a structure without being in a raceway or on a cable tray system (other than just code alone). Type TC under UL 1277 is constructed no differently than Type SE-R under UL 854, except for the fiberglass binder tape found in SE-R. Binder material or fillers are not required in Type TC unless it is deemed needed to maintain roundness. This is left up to the manufacturers discretion of course.
Also important to note that to be used in the 2017 NEC new allowance for one and two families, the TC Cable has to contain both Power and Control conductors which is a poor excuse for saying the use has been "expanded". However, it was pushed by the generator manufacturers (beginning with a G) and was originally intended only to encompass the ability to install a TC Cable from the ATS to the Generator for the power and control in the same cable......but it has morphed into being used as a Mini-Split Cable. The advent of both power and control in such a cable is well........lets not argue that one until we get the NEC changes to say....
Anyway....TC Cable goes through the same crush and impact testing as Type MC (UL 1569) and usually has an sheathing twice as thick or more than traditional Type SE-R Cable. However, the notice that you can't use Type TC in a building like other nonmetallic cable systems is to me....a FARSE to the industry (if you happen to read my public input on the subject). Lucky for me the CMP also agreed that type TC Cable was like any other nonmetallic-sheathed cable type system so I expect the doors to open for its more expanded use in 2020.
Here is what the NEC CMP agreed on :
In One- and two-family dwelling units, Type TC-ER cable containing both power and control conductors that is identified for pulling through structural members shall be permitted. Type TC-ER cable used as interior wiring shall be installed per the requirements of Part II of Article 334.
Exception: Where used to connect a generator and associated equipment having terminals rated 75°C (140°F) or higher, the cable shall not be limited in ampacity by 334.80 or 340.80.
Informational Note No. 1: TC-ER cable that is suitable for pulling through structural members is marked “JP.”
Informational Note No. 2: See 725.136 for limitations on Class 2 or 3 circuits contained within the same cable with conductors of electric light, power, or Class 1 circuits.
HOWEVER...here is what is should have said....and will be proposed in 2020
In One- and two-family dwelling units, Type TC-ER cable identified for pulling through structural members shall be permitted. Type TC-ER cable used as interior wiring shall be installed per the requirements of Part II of Article 334 and Part II of Article 340.
Exception: Where used to connect a generator and associated equipment having terminals rated 75°C (140°F) or higher, the cable shall not be limited in ampacity by 334.80 or 340.80.
Informational Note No. 1: TC-ER cable that is suitable for pulling through structural members is marked “JP.”
Informational Note No. 2: See 725.136 for limitations on Class 2 or 3 circuits contained within the same cable with conductors of electric light, power, or Class 1 circuits.
Now that is just one public input....the other if accepted would revise 336.12(2) to not specifically reference raceways or cable trays.....while reworking 336.10 to allow it in any building where it meets the "JP" tests that are required.
Last edited:
ryansmith22014@gmail.com
Member
- Location
- Everett WA 98203, USA
Know how to test this cable
Know how to test this cable
If you are concerned about the quality and efficiency of these cable, you can test it by Fluke Networks cable tester. I have been using this device since 15 months.
Know how to test this cable
If you are concerned about the quality and efficiency of these cable, you can test it by Fluke Networks cable tester. I have been using this device since 15 months.
Not the least bit concerned but as MatertheNEC notes, it's not Code compliant in a residential setting without a raceway. Once the manufactures address the listing issue I would be happy to see it.
hvacsplitman
Member
- Location
- philadelphia, pa
NEC Code and Use of TC for Mini Split applications
NEC Code and Use of TC for Mini Split applications
I have done much research on the 14/4 cable used from the condensing units to the indoor heads. Type TC or Type TC-ER is not compliant to the NEC for use in the wall or through the wall. The new NEC 2017 Code identifies Type TC-ER-JP which is allowed in this installation, if your state is on the 2017 Code. This leaves in question using class 1 and class two voltages in the same cable, since these units require AC and DC power type TC-ER-JP does not meet this code section of the NEC.
Just because a supply house provides the cable and it 'works' does not mean they are aware of the NEC codes and what the electrical inspector will approve and not approve.
NEC Code and Use of TC for Mini Split applications
I have done much research on the 14/4 cable used from the condensing units to the indoor heads. Type TC or Type TC-ER is not compliant to the NEC for use in the wall or through the wall. The new NEC 2017 Code identifies Type TC-ER-JP which is allowed in this installation, if your state is on the 2017 Code. This leaves in question using class 1 and class two voltages in the same cable, since these units require AC and DC power type TC-ER-JP does not meet this code section of the NEC.
Just because a supply house provides the cable and it 'works' does not mean they are aware of the NEC codes and what the electrical inspector will approve and not approve.
MAC702
Senior Member
- Location
- Clark County, NV
This thread got bumped, so I'll ask this question since I just saw this post.
You added a disconnect between the outdoor and indoor units on the cable between the two?
Most of these modern systems use this cable as communication between the two units, in addition to power. What happens when you actually disconnect the indoor machine while the outdoor machine is still on and wanting to communicate with it?
Isn't the cable running between the two machines part of the Listed assembly? I've never seen where the instructions even hint that a disconnect between the two would be appropriate.
Were the HVAC guys at least notified that you installed a disconnect on their cable? What did they say about it?
- Location
- Bremerton, Washington
- Occupation
- Master Electrician
TC is listed for direct burial
electrofelon
Senior Member
- Location
- Cherry Valley NY, Seattle, WA
Most instructions I have seen show a disconnect for the indoor unit and say something like "if required". There has been some debate about whether that disconnect is required. Iirc, the argument against putting one in is that the indoor unit falls under the 1/8 horsepower or less clause in the appliance section which permits the branch circuit ocpd to serve as the disconnecting means.
If you put in a disconnect, you need a three pole switch.
No I never told these hvac guys, or asked for their blessing or permission.
- Location
- Placerville, CA, USA
- Occupation
- Retired PV System Designer
As for combining control and power in the same cable, the mini-splits that I have seen use two wires for power, one fed from L1 and the other from L2. The third wire carries control signals, but the signals are referenced between that wire and one of the hot wires. There is no low voltage or limited power rating associated with the signal wire. Therefore I see no reason not to combine it (as Class 1 using Chapter 3 wiring) with the associated power circuit wires.
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