Hooking up GFCI breaker when no neutral is used.

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JOHNEO99

Senior Member
Hello all

I am doin a hot tub installation which does not require a neautral.(240v)

My question is ....Should I hook up the ground wire to the nuetral lead on the breaker at the panel?

Thanks in advance

John
 

infinity

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I'm with Sitckboy, if it sounds very out of the ordinary it's possibly wrong. The line side neutral from the CB goes to the neutral bus in the panel. A load side neutral is not needed to operate the CB with a 240 volt line to line load.
 

don_resqcapt19

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The line side neutral pigtail on the 2 pole GFCI breaker must be connected to the grounded conductor even where you don't need a grounded conductor for the load.
Don
 

JOHNEO99

Senior Member
Hooking up GFCI breaker when no neutral is used

Hooking up GFCI breaker when no neutral is used

stickboy1375 said:
have you ever installed a ground wire to a breaker before?


No......How does the breaker sense line to ground w/o a load side grounded conductor?
 

mdshunk

Senior Member
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Right here.
JOHNEO99 said:
No......How does the breaker sense line to ground w/o a load side grounded conductor?

It just knows that it's going "somewhere" besides back "in" the other hot conductor. That's all it needs to know.
 

stickboy1375

Senior Member
Location
Litchfield, CT
JOHNEO99 said:
No......How does the breaker sense line to ground w/o a load side grounded conductor?

I didn't design a 240v gfi breaker, but hear goes, since you have 120 volts at 180 degrees apart, what goes in must still come out... only instead of using a neutral is uses the opposite leg.... thats all I can think of...
 
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JOHNEO99

Senior Member
Hooking up GFCI breaker when no neutral is used

Hooking up GFCI breaker when no neutral is used

stickboy1375 said:
If he's (installer) really that worried about it, I would have read the directions that came with the gfi breaker...


Ya think the lead wire connected to the bus would do it stick? Thats my answer? Since gfis only sense line to ground not line to neutral?
 

stickboy1375

Senior Member
Location
Litchfield, CT
JOHNEO99 said:
Ya think the lead wire connected to the bus would do it stick? Thats my answer? Since gfis only sense line to ground not line to neutral?

GFI's do not sense LINE to GROUND, if they did, they would not work since grounds only carry current under a fault in the wiring system... thats why in older homes you can replace older 2 wire receptacles with GFI's... Just need to mark them " No Equipment Ground"

I never use gfi breakers for hot-tubs,
#1, Where I live we have freezing tempertures, so I use a disconnect with GFI & a FREEZE alarm already installed.
#2, Don't have to worry about distance of the wire being gfi protected.
#3, Need a disconnect anyways, makes life a hell of a lot easier...plus you never know what panel your going to come across, I know a Square D gfi breaker is ALOT more than a GE gfi breaker, so it saves me money...
 
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iwire

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mdshunk already said it but it seems he was overlooked.

In a nut shell the GFCI watches the current outbound from the breaker and looks to see the same amount of current coming back to it.

If the amount leaving does not match what is coming back the GFCI opens the circuit.

It does not need any reference to neutral or ground to do this.
 

realolman

Senior Member
I have a few questions I hope don't make me look too stupid, and that I hope someone will answer.

How does a double pole GFCI work on a three wire receptacle circuit or connected 110 volt loads? I know it does, but I don't know why. It seems to me like it shouldn't work.

Is the neutral current of different phases actually cancelled out and non-existant... they must still be there and able to be sensed? I know if one of the currents ceases, the other is there. Supposedly, if you consider them as sin waves, adding them up at individual points results a wave of lower magnitude than either one individually, but what exactly happens in the wire to these out of phase currents when they are combined?

If single phase transformers are connected to 3 phase distribution systems, how often are two phases actually 180 degrees out of phase? Or are they more often 120 degrees out?

O.K ... be nice
 
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JOHNEO99

Senior Member
stickboy1375 said:
GFI's do not sense LINE to GROUND, if they did, they would not work since grounds only carry current under a fault in the wiring system... thats why in older homes you can replace older 2 wire receptacles with GFI's... Just need to mark them " No Equipment Ground"

they dont sense line to ground? ground fault interupter?
 

JOHNEO99

Senior Member
JOHNEO99 said:
they dont sense line to ground? ground fault interupter?

ALL GFCI's work by comparing the current flow between the "hot" wires and the neutral, assuming your breaker has a "pass through" neutral terminal or wire. A 220/240 breaker would have a second function of comparing the load between the two hot wires. Given those two functions it would not take much for the breaker to trip if you had a 120 load on one leg of the circuit, which would balance the hot/neutral feeds, but not the second leg of the 220. Tell us what you are running off that circuit breaker and we may be able to determine what you have to do to make it work properly. Having another GFCI downstream will not automatically trip it, but its "sensing" circuitry could do so if the neutral is isolated from your circuit
 

iwire

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Location
Massachusetts
realolman said:
How does a double pole GFCI work on a three wire receptacle circuit or connected 110 volt loads?

Because the double pole GFCI runs the common neutral through the same current transformers as the two ungrounded conductors.

If you took your amp clamp and wrapped it around all three or four conductors of a multi wire branch circuit what would the reading be?

It would be 0 amps under any combinations of line to line or line to neutral loads.

As soon as any one of the conductors, including the neutral contacted a grounded object you would see a change in the meters reading
 

JOHNEO99

Senior Member
stickboy1375 said:
GFI's do not sense LINE to GROUND, if they did, they would not work since grounds only carry current under a fault in the wiring system... thats why in older homes you can replace older 2 wire receptacles with GFI's... Just need to mark them " No Equipment Ground"

I never use gfi breakers for hot-tubs,
#1, Where I live we have freezing tempertures, so I use a disconnect with GFI & a FREEZE alarm already installed.
#2, Don't have to worry about distance of the wire being gfi protected.
#3, Need a disconnect anyways, makes life a hell of a lot easier...plus you never know what panel your going to come across, I know a Square D gfi breaker is ALOT more than a GE gfi breaker, so it saves me money...

ALL GFCI's work by comparing the current flow between the "hot" wires and the neutral, assuming your breaker has a "pass through" neutral terminal or wire. A 220/240 breaker would have a second function of comparing the load between the two hot wires. Given those two functions it would not take much for the breaker to trip if you had a 120 load on one leg of the circuit, which would balance the hot/neutral feeds, but not the second leg of the 220. Tell us what you are running off that circuit breaker and we may be able to determine what you have to do to make it work properly. Having another GFCI downstream will not automatically trip it, but its "sensing" circuitry could do so if the neutral is isolated from your circuit.

They do monitor line to ground because they current would spike.
 

JOHNEO99

Senior Member
ALL GFCI's work by comparing the current flow between the "hot" wires and the neutral, assuming your breaker has a "pass through" neutral terminal or wire. A 220/240 breaker would have a second function of comparing the load between the two hot wires. Given those two functions it would not take much for the breaker to trip if you had a 120 load on one leg of the circuit, which would balance the hot/neutral feeds, but not the second leg of the 220. Tell us what you are running off that circuit breaker and we may be able to determine what you have to do to make it work properly. Having another GFCI downstream will not automatically trip it, but its "sensing" circuitry could do so if the neutral is isolated from your circuit



where u from stick?
 

stickboy1375

Senior Member
Location
Litchfield, CT
gfi_paths_normal.jpg

Figure 1 — Under normal conditions, current flowing to the load is equal to current returning from the load.
As illustrated in this sketch, electrical current flows in a closed path from the source (labeled "line"), through the load, and back to the source. The current flowing toward the load is exactly equal to the current returning from the load. Current in both directions is made to pass through the center of a detection coil (L1). Current passing through the detector coil produces a voltage at the output terminals of the coil, but because the outbound and inbound current is exactly equal and opposite, the two currents together exactly cancel and produce no output voltage from the detector coil.
gfi_paths_fault.jpg

Figure 2 — When a ground fault occurs, part of the current returns via the ground path.
When some fault in the insulation of the conductors or the appliance, or accidental contact with a person or animal causes leakage of current to ground, that part of the current does not flow in the intended path, so the current in one conductor does hot quite equal the current in the other. In this condition, the magnetic fields of the hot and neutral conductors do not exactly cancel, and the detection coil produces a voltage. The ground fault detector circuit senses the voltage from the detection coil and sends a pulse of current through the trip solenoid.

gfi_paths_tripped.jpg

Figure 3— When the GFI is tripped, the load contacts open to stop all current.
The solenoid unlatches the interrupter contacts, which spring open to disconnect the protected wiring. The GFI will remain tripped until it is manually reset, so that the cause of the trip can be corrected safely

gfi_paths_nfault.jpg

Figure 4— When a ground fault occurs in the neutral wire, neutral fault detection signal current flows.
Neutral-fault detection is an additional feature of the GFI. If no load is connected, a ground fault in the neutral conductor could escape detection. This situation is not nearly so dangerous as a fault in the hot conductor, but could become dangerous if further faults develop. To detect the condition, the GFI generates a signal, which is induced into both conductors (i.e. it is a common-mode signal). If no ground fault exists, there is no closed path for the signal to follow, hence it causes no current and is not seen by the detection coil. When a fault develops, the signal returns to its source via the grounding system, producing a current which is detected, causing the GFI to trip. The voltage and current levels at which this signal operates are very small, and have no effect on electrical equipment.
 

jim dungar

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JOHNEO99 said:
they dont sense line to ground? ground fault interupter?

Okay so maybe ground fault circuit interupter is a bad name. How about un-intended current path circuit interupter?
 
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