Hospital transfer switches :Emergency

[brother]

In 517.19 NEC 2005 it requires power from BOTH normal and emergency for the branch circuits(ie receptacles) but if the emergency comes from 2 TWO different transfer switches, then it can be ALL emergency.

Its my understanding that NFPA 99 requires that all the circuits/receptacles originate from teh same panel board, regardless of how many transfer switches. Just curious as to how would one fufill this requirment for emergency receptacles from the same panel board if they have 2 different transfer switches??? Looks like the diffferent transfer switch would need another panel board.

 

[brother]

bump to the top

 

[russ]

Its my understanding that NFPA 99 requires that all the circuits/receptacles originate from teh same panel board, regardless of how many transfer switches. Just curious as to how would one fufill this requirment for emergency receptacles from the same panel board if they have 2 different transfer switches??? Looks like the diffferent transfer switch would need another panel board.

It looks to me that if the NEC required the Exception 2 circuits to be from two different panels then they should have said so. I don't see it.

I want to add that feeding a panel with more than one transfer switch is not uncommon when you have three or more sources of power.

 

[brother]

It looks to me that if the NEC required the Exception 2 circuits to be from two different panels then they should have said so. I don't see it.

I want to add that feeding a panel with more than one transfer switch is not uncommon when you have three or more sources of power.

Im trying to picture this, Im drawing this out, I suppose they are set up to ensure no back feeding from transfer to another and the phases would have to be sequence right?

It looks to me that if the NEC required the Exception 2 circuits to be from two different panels then they should have said so. I don't see it.

The NEC is a permissive document, in 517.19(A) it specifically says that 'normal' power shall be from the same panel board, not the emergency, so i have to believe that its ok to come from a different board from the NEC perspective, but it appears that this is FORBIDDEN in the NFPA 99. Seems to be a conflict there.

 

[roger]

NFPA 99 4.3.2.2.1 says the same thing as NFPA 70 with a little different wording, they do not conflict.

Roger

 

[girl]

guys, i apologize if my question doesn't belong here.

please could you tell me: whose job, responsibility is Diesel Generator in the Hospital. Would it be Licensed Electrician or general maintenance staff?
The Generator is put on test every week and the manager says from now on general maintenance (unlicensed) will take care of it. what I mean take care of it is: check temperature, batteries, oil, main panel readings, etc.

is there anything in the Electrical Code (Canadian) about it whose responsibility it should be?

Thank you all

**** what would be the argument with the manager to make sure that Licensed Electrician runs it instead of general staff doing it.

 

[acrwc10]

guys, i apologize if my question doesn't belong here.

please could you tell me: whose job, responsibility is Diesel Generator in the Hospital. Would it be Licensed Electrician or general maintenance staff?
The Generator is put on test every week and the manager says from now on general maintenance (unlicensed) will take care of it. what I mean take care of it is: check temperature, batteries, oil, main panel readings, etc.

is there anything in the Electrical Code (Canadian) about it whose responsibility it should be?

Thank you all

**** what would be the argument with the manager to make sure that Licensed Electrician runs it instead of general staff doing it.

Maybe they have a licensed electrician on staff.

 

[girl]

they do but the manager is A.H. and doesn't let him to do it any more.

 

[acrwc10]

they do but the manager is A.H. and doesn't let him to do it any more.

Because he has to many fluorescent ballasts that need changing.

 

[cadpoint]

Can you state what NFPA 99 Article your quoting !?

I frankly don't think that is what is said in 517.19(A); 05' In respects to your question. If 517.19(A) is you answer than your rationalizing something that is not being said! JMO...

If we can include 517.30, as an example, of what your trying to do and realizing that this nearly repeats itself verbatim of the previous articles, not even being as demanding as a hospital, but the near same verbiage.

You can practice your application based on this and your sketching skills based on Figure 517.30.

 

[roger]

guys, i apologize if my question doesn't belong here.

please could you tell me: whose job, responsibility is Diesel Generator in the Hospital. Would it be Licensed Electrician or general maintenance staff?
The Generator is put on test every week and the manager says from now on general maintenance (unlicensed) will take care of it. what I mean take care of it is: check temperature, batteries, oil, main panel readings, etc.

is there anything in the Electrical Code (Canadian) about it whose responsibility it should be?

Thank you all

**** what would be the argument with the manager to make sure that Licensed Electrician runs it instead of general staff doing it.

Generally speaking, in the U.S. (some local jurisdictions may be different though) it doesn't matter who does the maintenance and testing as long as it is done per NFPA 99, 110, Joint Commission guidelines, etc.... and the correct records are kept.

Roger

 

[girl]

Generally speaking, in the U.S. (some local jurisdictions may be different though) it doesn't matter who does the maintenance and testing as long as it is done per NFPA 99, 110, Joint Commission guidelines, etc.... and the correct records are kept.

Roger

thank you very much.

 

[brother]

NFPA 99 4.3.2.2.1 says the same thing as NFPA 70 with a little different wording, they do not conflict.

Roger

Ok i reread that article, it looks like the wording through me off a little bit. So the emergency circuits are NOT required to come from the same panel board.

Do you have any old code books.??Im curious when did they first require both normal and emergency circuits and receptacles for the patient care areas. The oldest ive seen so far is 1987 (public library). Ive run into situations where they had ALL emergency in these areas and there were only on ONE transfer switch. It didnt look that old, so i doubt the grandfather clause would come into effect.

 

[roger]

Ok i reread that article, it looks like the wording through me off a little bit. So the emergency circuits are NOT required to come from the same panel board.

Correct.

Brother, I'm not sure when the rule went into effect but an important thing to remember is that not all areas are that good at enforcing codes or standards.

When the big blackout occurred a few years ago, I read where many NYS hospitals had massive problems with back up power sources failing and when it was all said and done, many had basically not been testing or maintaining their systems as required.

I was also in an ICU/CCU of a hospital in South GA last year and there were no HG receptacles in any of these rooms, these rooms were not that old either.

Roger

 

[brother]

Correct.

Brother, I'm not sure when the rule went into effect but an important thing to remember is that not all areas are that good at enforcing codes or standards.

When the big blackout occurred a few years ago, I read where many NYS hospitals had massive problems with back up power sources failing and when it was all said and done, many had basically not been testing or maintaining their systems as required.

I was also in an ICU/CCU of a hospital in South GA last year and there were no HG receptacles in any of these rooms, these rooms were not that old either.

Roger

Its sad to see that some hospitals are not paid more attention to. You would think the power source would get a 'PRIME' rib type attention especially after the blackouts that were had. I assume that NY means New York ?? What does 'S" mean??

Also I read somwhere they are thinking of making it a 'requirement per NFPA 99' for all O.R.'s to be considered wet locations which would make them have to have 'isolation panels/power'. Some organizations are against this. What do you think about that??

 

[girl]

Also I read somwhere they are thinking of making it a 'requirement per NFPA 99' for all O.R.'s to be considered wet locations which would make them have to have 'isolation panels/power'. Some organizations are against this. What do you think about that??[/QUOTE]

why would they be against it?

 

[brother]

Also I read somwhere they are thinking of making it a 'requirement per NFPA 99' for all O.R.'s to be considered wet locations which would make them have to have 'isolation panels/power'. Some organizations are against this. What do you think about that??

why would they be against it?[/QUOTE]

The costs, not just from construction , but mostly from 'maintaining it. Isopanels have to be tested regularly by code. Also it takes the 'jurisdictional' decision away from the hospitals that can CHOOSE if they want the o.r. to be listed as wet locations.

Iso/ungrounded systems are alot more expensive than just regular grounded systems.

 

[brother]

why would they be against it?

The costs, not just from construction , but mostly from 'maintaining it. Isopanels have to be tested regularly by code. Also it takes the 'jurisdictional' decision away from the hospitals that can CHOOSE if they want the o.r. to be listed as wet locations.

Iso/ungrounded systems are alot more expensive than just regular grounded systems. Not to mention the new code NEC 2008 requirments of the receptacles to be 'weather resistant' in wet locations and the have weather proof covers. NEC 2008 406.8(B)(1).

Can you imagine the O.R'S having those big bulky covers on their receptacles?? I can see the W.R. receptacles being installed but the covers I think would be going overboard for an O.R. I believe this would 'hinder' nurses and doctors more than it would help.
These would be Hospital grade, weather resistant, weatherproof cover having, receptacles!!

 

[steve66]

I think the 1987 code was the first to require normal power in addition to the emergency power. Any thing under the 1984 code could have all the receptacles off the same transfer switch.

And yes, you are allowed to run receptacles from 2 different panels to meet this requirement. But you have to run a certain size, unspliced ground wire between the two panel ground busses.

For as much as the doctors and hospitals charge, I don't think isolated power is going to add that much more cost. If its me on the table, I want all the safety I can get.

I don't think anyone is going to require wet location receptacles in an OR. I think the "wet" location is more the procedure table and the floor than the walls or the columns where the receptacles are.

 

[brother]

I think the 1987 code was the first to require normal power in addition to the emergency power. Any thing under the 1984 code could have all the receptacles off the same transfer switch.

And yes, you are allowed to run receptacles from 2 different panels to meet this requirement. But you have to run a certain size, unspliced ground wire between the two panel ground busses.

For as much as the doctors and hospitals charge, I don't think isolated power is going to add that much more cost. If its me on the table, I want all the safety I can get.

I don't think anyone is going to require wet location receptacles in an OR. I think the "wet" location is more the procedure table and the floor than the walls or the columns where the receptacles are.

Ive seen O.R. have 'booms' with receptacles on them, that they can move around, as far as the wall and over to the o.r. table. I still think they will consider the walls 'wet locations' because that is one of the main reason for having extra power in these rooms. if they loss the boom receptacles then the walls can be used.