Hot tub bonding.

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
What do you do if the tub is on a wooden deck 15' up from the ground?
The deck being more of a balcony, not much larger than the tub.
This is the same discussion we were having a few years ago, and IMO one major reason for the TIA and the changes in 2014. I don't know for certain what changed in 2008 but I think they changed some wording and came up with overseen situations like the one you asked, but don't know why it was never changed in 2011 either, instead the TIA eventually was issued.
 

Dennis Alwon

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Chapel Hill, NC
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
I always thought the 28" requirement was because the powers to be assumed you would not have one foot in the water and one on the ground at the same time. Not certain because one certainly could perform that feat.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
I always thought the 28" requirement was because the powers to be assumed you would not have one foot in the water and one on the ground at the same time. Not certain because one certainly could perform that feat.
Some tall people could possibly still defeat that if the requirement were 48":happyyes:

Take someone in the ballpark of 7 feet tall, stretch him out so his hands are touching the water and his feet could be touching some other potential over 5 feet from the edge of the "pool" or "tub". May not be likely for him to be in that situation but not impossible.
 

Dennis Alwon

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Chapel Hill, NC
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
Some tall people could possibly still defeat that if the requirement were 48":happyyes:

Take someone in the ballpark of 7 feet tall, stretch him out so his hands are touching the water and his feet could be touching some other potential over 5 feet from the edge of the "pool" or "tub". May not be likely for him to be in that situation but not impossible.

For sure but I cannot find other reasons why 28" was decided
 

tom baker

First Chief Moderator
Staff member
I have never heard of TIA's until now. It would be nice if CEU instructors would bring this kind of stuff up to inform electricians.
For my classes I do. Do you have the Errata and is your NEC Updated? Without the errata your code book is not current - depending on what edition you have,
I would not place all the blame on the CE instructors. You have the responsibilty to go to the NFPA and get the updates. They have a subscription alert sevice you can subscribe to. Maybe your CE instructor doesn't know about the TIA and erratas.
 

Greg1707

Senior Member
Location
Alexandria, VA
Occupation
Business owner Electrical contractor
spa with self contained with attached cord and plub

spa with self contained with attached cord and plub

Just to be clear, a self contained hot tub or spa that has a factory cord and plug is not covered by the NEC.
 

Ohms law

Senior Member
Location
Sioux Falls,SD
For my classes I do. Do you have the Errata and is your NEC Updated? Without the errata your code book is not current - depending on what edition you have,
I would not place all the blame on the CE instructors. You have the responsibilty to go to the NFPA and get the updates. They have a subscription alert sevice you can subscribe to. Maybe your CE instructor doesn't know about the TIA and erratas.
I don't blame the instructors. They have mentioned ROP's and ROC's, now that I know about TIA's I will try to be more observant on the NFPA website for other knowledgable information.
Honestly I feel that there are so many electrician that don't care about these things and just go to work everyday. I do enjoy learning more and I never stop searching for answers.
 

Greg1707

Senior Member
Location
Alexandria, VA
Occupation
Business owner Electrical contractor
90.2 A

90.2 A

What about 680.42?
What about 90.2 A? "Code covers the installation of electrical conductors, equipment, and raceways...?
Also, I assume the spa would be UL listed or otherwise and would have manufacturers instruction?

The only reason I raise this issue is that I just went thought this recently with a customer. The customer called and said they had just purchased a 120 volt outdoor package spa unit. He wanted me to come over and install an outdoor GFCI receptacle. So, having installed bigger spa units I had this discussion with him about bonding etc. He then told me that he would call me back and ask me to install a GFCI receptacle for a lawn mower! I eventually came to agree. I would install an outdoor receptacle and he could use the outlet for whatever he wanted.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
For my classes I do. Do you have the Errata and is your NEC Updated? Without the errata your code book is not current - depending on what edition you have,
I would not place all the blame on the CE instructors. You have the responsibilty to go to the NFPA and get the updates. They have a subscription alert sevice you can subscribe to. Maybe your CE instructor doesn't know about the TIA and erratas.
I don't think he was blaming the instructors, but rather pointing out that it would be nice for them to sometimes cover some of the basics of how the NEC works. I had been using it for several years myself before ever hearing of TIA's, or errata, both being introduced to me at CEU classes. If I did learn about them in college, it did not stick in memory, but that is the type of thing most of us would not remember that early in our career and is easier to pick up and remember later when it means more to you and you see good examples of why it happens.

For those that don't know the errata is an editorial listing of corrections of errors found in the printing. Not a change of content just corrections of publishing errors. It may contain simple misspellings in some locations to complete missing sentence or even complete missing section that was supposed to be there. If you purchased an early release you may have a copy with more of these errors in it, as when later editions are printed they correct any known mistakes before printing. Somewhere in the front matter of your book it tells you what revision you have, and the errata data tells you what revisions it applies to.

When I first learned about this was probably about the time we were using 2002, maybe 2005 code, and we did by looking at errata information that we had people in the same room with different revisions. Some had early revisions with mistakes, and others had later revisions without those mistakes.

Just to be clear, a self contained hot tub or spa that has a factory cord and plug is not covered by the NEC.
The NEC does cover the receptacle and everything upstream - as has been mentioned. The hot tub may have some additional requirements in instructions though that are a part of the listing of the unit.
 

Little Bill

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Tennessee NEC:2017
Occupation
Electrician
Here is the TIA
From the TIA:

(2) The vertical measurement from all permanent perimeter surfaces within 30 horizontal inches (76 cm) of the spa to the top
rim of the spa is greater than 28 inches (71 cm).
Maybe it's me, but I have trouble reading this as written. Everything seems to run together and I had to read it several times for it to make sense.:happyyes:

I think there should be a comma or two in there.

Like this:

(2) The vertical measurement from all permanent perimeter surfaces within 30 horizontal inches (76 cm) of the spa, to the top
rim of the spa, is greater than 28 inches (71 cm).
 

Dennis Alwon

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Chapel Hill, NC
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
From the TIA:



Maybe it's me, but I have trouble reading this as written. Everything seems to run together and I had to read it several times for it to make sense.:happyyes:

I think there should be a comma or two in there.

Like this:

(2) The vertical measurement from all permanent perimeter surfaces within 30 horizontal inches (76 cm) of the spa, to the top
rim of the spa, is greater than 28 inches (71 cm).
I think it is saying everything 28 inches high out to 30 inches from the tub.

So you could have a tub that is over 28" high but there could be a step 24" away from the tub that made the distance less than 28" . In this case the pen would be req hired.
 

Little Bill

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Tennessee NEC:2017
Occupation
Electrician
I think it is saying everything 28 inches high out to 30 inches from the tub.

So you could have a tub that is over 28" high but there could be a step 24" away from the tub that made the distance less than 28" . In this case the pen would be req hired.
I did finally figure out what it was saying, I just thought it could have been written a little more clear.

Such as just adding the "commas" like I did.
 

squaredan

Senior Member
Location
Pennsylvania
For those that don't know the errata is an editorial listing of corrections of errors found in the printing. Not a change of content just corrections of publishing errors. It may contain simple misspellings in some locations to complete missing sentence or even complete missing section that was supposed to be there. If you purchased an early release you may have a copy with more of these errors in it, as when later editions are printed they correct any known mistakes before printing. Somewhere in the front matter of your book it tells you what revision you have, and the errata data tells you what revisions it applies to..
Did not know about errata or TIAs, thanks for the info kwired..
 
Top