Hot Tub Bonding

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Equipotential bonding isn't about draining the charge, and it isn't about additional "grounding/earthing" - it is about putting everything you do bond at the same potential.

Bonding those pipes to the tub just increases the size of the capacitor plate.

That said the tub is still supposed to get connected to an EGC nearly every case so that will end up draining the capacitor anyway.

I understand equipotential bonding. I was expanding upon your theory of capacitance in an object such as a treated wood deck structure. The point being that IF a wooden deck is capable of holding a capacitive charge, there must be something to charge it. A voltage gradient imposed on the rest of the equipotential bonding system could charge it. It wouldn't be able to store a voltage higher than that of the equipotential system, so would present no danger. An intermittently poor connection with the equipotential system could pose a dangerous difference in potential, and as there is no method of bonding metal to wood with any certainty, a varying potential within the equipotential system coupled with an intermittent bond between the pipes and deck could leave the deck (our theoretical large capacitor) at a higher potential than the rest of the system. I think that's where Dennis was going with this.
 
I understand equipotential bonding. I was expanding upon your theory of capacitance in an object such as a treated wood deck structure. The point being that IF a wooden deck is capable of holding a capacitive charge, there must be something to charge it. A voltage gradient imposed on the rest of the equipotential bonding system could charge it. It wouldn't be able to store a voltage higher than that of the equipotential system, so would present no danger. An intermittently poor connection with the equipotential system could pose a dangerous difference in potential, and as there is no method of bonding metal to wood with any certainty, a varying potential within the equipotential system coupled with an intermittent bond between the pipes and deck could leave the deck (our theoretical large capacitor) at a higher potential than the rest of the system. I think that's where Dennis was going with this.

Was brought up what would energize isolated metal components - capacitance was just one possibility even if not all that likely.

One can ask similar question about something like metal structure for a diving platform, lifeguard stand, slide support structure, and similar things around a swimming pool - what is going to energize them? Answer is it is probably not all that likely, but we bond them anyway because we don't want them somehow (though unknown how) they will become at different potential then the pool, deck etc.
 
Was brought up what would energize isolated metal components - capacitance was just one possibility even if not all that likely.

One can ask similar question about something like metal structure for a diving platform, lifeguard stand, slide support structure, and similar things around a swimming pool - what is going to energize them? Answer is it is probably not all that likely, but we bond them anyway because we don't want them somehow (though unknown how) they will become at different potential then the pool, deck etc.

All the things on your list are stuck in the earth. The metal rail in the OP is totally isolated and there is no way it could be energized until you bond it.
 
All the things on your list are stuck in the earth. The metal rail in the OP is totally isolated and there is no way it could be energized until you bond it.
Some of the examples given in 680.26(B)(7) are not really any different.

Now 680.42(B) doesn't require it to be bonded if conditions mentioned there are met.
 
Just to clarify and rehash previous comments that amused a few readers:


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Here we have a conductive component and an insulating component - that is a capacitor. Bonding the metal pipes will eliminate capactively coupled voltage on those pipes as referenced to the pool/spa.
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To drain a capacitor all you need to do is short the two plates together. Permanently short them together and you don't have a capacitor anymore.
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I guess my point all along is bonding turns what was a natural capacitor into a non capacitor. All metallic components will remain at same potential. They may change potential in relation to something not bonded. This is what equipotential bonding is all about though, everything bonded is at same potential.
Yes, it all should be at the same or very close potential. But you raised an interesting point...that the decking could in effect create a capacitor, which is a storage rather than conductive medium. Bonding the pipes would not necessarily drain the charge, and could actually work to charge the capacitor instead. It's all very undefinable and mostly theoretical. I'm no dirt worshipper by any means, but do think the pipes should be bonded in this instance.
---
Equipotential bonding isn't about draining the charge, and it isn't about additional "grounding/earthing" - it is about putting everything you do bond at the same potential.
–-
Bonding those pipes to the tub just increases the size of the capacitor plate.
–-
That said the tub is still supposed to get connected to an EGC nearly every case so that will end up draining the capacitor anyway.

---
I understand equipotential bonding. I was expanding upon your theory of capacitance in an object such as a treated wood deck structure. The point being that IF a wooden deck is capable of holding a capacitive charge, there must be something to charge it. A voltage gradient imposed on the rest of the equipotential bonding system could charge it. It wouldn't be able to store a voltage higher than that of the equipotential system, so would present no danger. An intermittently poor connection with the equipotential system could pose a dangerous difference in potential, and as there is no method of bonding metal to wood with any certainty, a varying potential within the equipotential system coupled with an intermittent bond between the pipes and deck could leave the deck (our theoretical large capacitor) at a higher potential than the rest of the system. I think that's where Dennis was going with this.
---
Was brought up what would energize isolated metal components - capacitance was just one possibility even if not all that likely.
–-
One can ask similar question about something like metal structure for a diving platform, lifeguard stand, slide support structure, and similar things around a swimming pool - what is going to energize them? Answer is it is probably not all that likely, but we bond them anyway because we don't want them somehow (though unknown how) they will become at different potential then the pool, deck etc.”



---


My comment:


At consumer level 120/240 VAC power supply with the (possible) potential build up in household wiring system that is introduced by capacitance is so miniscule that humans should not even be concerned.

It is expressed in microfarads generally- - - save for very high voltage ranging in KV.

Another point that seems (as demonstrated by several posts above) is the erroneous assertion that capacitance could result-- and thereby cause harm associated with AC power system.

Energy build up in DC through capacitive energy is different from AC. While it is possible to charge a capacitor with DC and therefore utilize the charge for some electronics circuitry, it is not readily achievable from a garden variety perspective-- and can cause fatal shock when powered from AC.

When DC is applied to a capacitor, it acts like a battery and it holds its charge until it is discharged by either using the charge or simply dumping it.

In AC, the capacitor will only charge at the half sine wave when it is at its positive region, but will discharge as soon as the sine wave starts its negative transition. This happens so many times depending on the frequency.
It's because of this phenomenon that makes AC's accumulated capacitance should not be a concern. It dissipates naturally.

So, relax about this notion that capacitance will occur on the piece of pipe, and the capacitance of the wood deck that leads to the false creation of capacitor plate. It is a myth that one needs to be careful propagating erroneously.

The big concern (very likely) is the build up of electrostatic charge of the metal pipe that is being isolated from whatever path of potential to ground (earth).

Perhaps the inspector is concerned about the accumulation of static charge in the metal pipe. This is the logic that prompted his bonding/grounding exigency . He is right and not being totalitarian as one poster had assumed.

The inspector's assertion is reasonable. . . that's why he is inspector and the poster is not.
I'm not saying that they are always right, but in this instance I agree with him.

Static charge that could go as high as 50 KV or more, is harmful to electronic life-saving gadgetry like pacemakers. A person wearing a PM and unintentionally exposing himself to release of this electrostatic charge could suffer arrhythmia.

It could also fry your iPad for sure.

Not to mention cell phones and other sensitive audio equipment.
 
I am still going to stick to what I believe the intent of equipotential bonding required by 680.26 is all about and is stated in 680.26(A) - "The equipotential bonding required by this section shall be installed to reduce voltage gradients in the pool area".

To me that means anything conductive in the areas mentioned needs bonded together, unless specifically mentioned as being exempt from this requirement, to keep the voltage potential between all such objects as minimal as possible. Does not matter that the metal pipe in question in this thread is electrically isolated by wood framing - we don't want them to become some undesired potential no matter how unlikely it may seem that it would happen. Bonding them to the equipotential bonding system assures this.

The fact this is a spa application and that some rules are a little different for packaged spa units can make this a little confusing.

I will say I haven't bonded every piece of metal within close proximity of such spas myself, especially if on wood deck. On concrete, I have more mixed feelings on what should be bonded.
 
Just to clarify and rehash previous comments that amused a few readers:


----
Here we have a conductive component and an insulating component - that is a capacitor. Bonding the metal pipes will eliminate capactively coupled voltage on those pipes as referenced to the pool/spa.
---
To drain a capacitor all you need to do is short the two plates together. Permanently short them together and you don't have a capacitor anymore.
---
I guess my point all along is bonding turns what was a natural capacitor into a non capacitor. All metallic components will remain at same potential. They may change potential in relation to something not bonded. This is what equipotential bonding is all about though, everything bonded is at same potential.
Yes, it all should be at the same or very close potential. But you raised an interesting point...that the decking could in effect create a capacitor, which is a storage rather than conductive medium. Bonding the pipes would not necessarily drain the charge, and could actually work to charge the capacitor instead. It's all very undefinable and mostly theoretical. I'm no dirt worshipper by any means, but do think the pipes should be bonded in this instance.
---
Equipotential bonding isn't about draining the charge, and it isn't about additional "grounding/earthing" - it is about putting everything you do bond at the same potential.
–-
Bonding those pipes to the tub just increases the size of the capacitor plate.
–-
That said the tub is still supposed to get connected to an EGC nearly every case so that will end up draining the capacitor anyway.

---
I understand equipotential bonding. I was expanding upon your theory of capacitance in an object such as a treated wood deck structure. The point being that IF a wooden deck is capable of holding a capacitive charge, there must be something to charge it. A voltage gradient imposed on the rest of the equipotential bonding system could charge it. It wouldn't be able to store a voltage higher than that of the equipotential system, so would present no danger. An intermittently poor connection with the equipotential system could pose a dangerous difference in potential, and as there is no method of bonding metal to wood with any certainty, a varying potential within the equipotential system coupled with an intermittent bond between the pipes and deck could leave the deck (our theoretical large capacitor) at a higher potential than the rest of the system. I think that's where Dennis was going with this.
---
Was brought up what would energize isolated metal components - capacitance was just one possibility even if not all that likely.
–-
One can ask similar question about something like metal structure for a diving platform, lifeguard stand, slide support structure, and similar things around a swimming pool - what is going to energize them? Answer is it is probably not all that likely, but we bond them anyway because we don't want them somehow (though unknown how) they will become at different potential then the pool, deck etc.”



---


My comment:


At consumer level 120/240 VAC power supply with the (possible) potential build up in household wiring system that is introduced by capacitance is so miniscule that humans should not even be concerned.

It is expressed in microfarads generally- - - save for very high voltage ranging in KV.

Another point that seems (as demonstrated by several posts above) is the erroneous assertion that capacitance could result-- and thereby cause harm associated with AC power system.

Energy build up in DC through capacitive energy is different from AC. While it is possible to charge a capacitor with DC and therefore utilize the charge for some electronics circuitry, it is not readily achievable from a garden variety perspective-- and can cause fatal shock when powered from AC.

When DC is applied to a capacitor, it acts like a battery and it holds its charge until it is discharged by either using the charge or simply dumping it.

In AC, the capacitor will only charge at the half sine wave when it is at its positive region, but will discharge as soon as the sine wave starts its negative transition. This happens so many times depending on the frequency.
It's because of this phenomenon that makes AC's accumulated capacitance should not be a concern. It dissipates naturally.

So, relax about this notion that capacitance will occur on the piece of pipe, and the capacitance of the wood deck that leads to the false creation of capacitor plate. It is a myth that one needs to be careful propagating erroneously.

The big concern (very likely) is the build up of electrostatic charge of the metal pipe that is being isolated from whatever path of potential to ground (earth).

Perhaps the inspector is concerned about the accumulation of static charge in the metal pipe. This is the logic that prompted his bonding/grounding exigency . He is right and not being totalitarian as one poster had assumed.

The inspector's assertion is reasonable. . . that's why he is inspector and the poster is not.
I'm not saying that they are always right, but in this instance I agree with him.

Static charge that could go as high as 50 KV or more, is harmful to electronic life-saving gadgetry like pacemakers. A person wearing a PM and unintentionally exposing himself to release of this electrostatic charge could suffer arrhythmia.

It could also fry your iPad for sure.

Not to mention cell phones and other sensitive audio equipment.
I've held the notion of a treated wood deck becoming a capacitor suspect all through this discussion. My comments however allowed for the possibility and that if it could happen to any significant degree, that bonding the pipes would help rather than hurt any potential safety problems.
 
I wish I did better testing while I was there but I have some info to relate. There were 14 rails in between 2 wooden posts and I had to bond each rail with a separate piece of #8 tied to the equipotential bonding. So there are a bunch of #8 wires running up the back of the post. I test voltage to the wooden post and I got 107 volts. When I tested hot to the bonded rails I got 122v. The last rail measured 107V before I bonded it.

So there is a slight difference but it seems that the bonding was not necessary since the voltage was the same at the unbonded rail and the wooden post. I need to go back so I may see what the voltage is at the other end of the tub away from the bonding.

I just don't see how there won't be a difference
 
Here we are 2 years later and we have the same setup only this time there are 104 pieces of stainless steel to bond.

We decided to do a test. We ran the equipotential bonding in the dirt and up the 4x4 to the tub. We did not connect it to the tub but instead we put 120v to the wire....eek.... We then measure many areas from the rails to the deck (deck was soaked with a hose) and the highest measurement we got was .3v.

Is there a better way to test it. BTW, I am quite sure the authority having jurisdiction will insist on the bonding...but I was curious.

My thinking is the deck and the posts should be the same potential the rails don't fit in snuggly so they may not be the same potential but would it matter since they are basically floating, or touching the post which is at the same potential as the deck.

Any ideas


enhance
 
It will not look good... We will use a pipe clamp close to the 4x4. I found one that has the hole oriented so I can run straight up. They can try and hide it with a piece of wood... not my problem
 
It will not look good... We will use a pipe clamp close to the 4x4. I found one that has the hole oriented so I can run straight up. They can try and hide it with a piece of wood... not my problem
That kitty in the photo is also pondering the issue. Did he have any opinion?
 
That kitty in the photo is also pondering the issue. Did he have any opinion?

He absolutely was no help.

So what would you do on this install???? IMO, there is no choice code wise. Even if a local inspector would allow it if something happened it would come back on me and the state board we be involved.

I understand the compliant issue but it just seems that the deck is theoretically bonded so the pipes would also be since they are part of the deck.
 
No, Hillsborough, NC. Same thing a few years ago in Durham. I spoke with Joe the state engineer and he says he would have to enforce it because the code says all metal within 5' of the tub must be bonded.

Here's the think...The equipotential bonding is in the earth below the deck and that theoretically keeps the deck at the same potential as the tub. If the metal rails are all connected to the deck posts then aren't they in a sense bonded. Why is the deck bonded but not the metal rails. If the rails were somehow isolated from the wood why would it need to be bonded?

I think Joe agrees that it probably is not necessary but he is caught by the rules and has to enforce it. I totally understood where he was coming from but the more I thought about it the more I realized that the post are bonding the metal rails.
 
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