Hot Tub install / replace main service / am I getting r

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PDXTerra

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Disclaimer: I'm not looking for "how-to" advice with my post, just an educated opinion (or two, or three...) which pertain to my particular situation. I will *not* be doing any electrical work on my house.

Short story long (sorry!), I bought a new hot tub recently for a bargain price - about half price actually. I called a few places around here (Portland, Oregon) for the install, and after saying, "It's HOW much?!" about a dozen times, I started to think that I'm in the wrong business.

I did some research on the Internet to see what the average cost is for the hook up since my quotes were all over, and I discovered that this is going to cost me a lot of money. That's not a jab at electricians - I know it's an expensive procedure - but when you leave the hot tub showroom floor with one figure ($350) and then discover it will cost 3 to 4 times that, it's a little "shocking" (pun intended). In fact, it might cost me so much that I'll sell the hot tub before I have it installed. Read on, it makes more sense down below...

Question 1:

My first question has to do with my main 200 amp service - will they need to replace it? One of the places I called said they "might need to replace my main panel." To me, that's like my mechanic telling me he "might need to replace my engine." They told me over the phone to open the panel, read off the amp ratings, and count extra spaces for breakers. One place said, "yes, we need to replace that," another place said "no,
it's adequate." Since the amp ratings on all the breakers totalled wayyyy over 200, I have no idea which place is right. I understand that there's some freakishly complex math involved (not just "20 + 20 + 30 + 15...") but I haven't got a clue. I want the place to be safe, but I don't like paying for things that I may or may not need...? The setup is like so:


200 amp Siemens (there are no extra spaces for breakers). My house is 1350 sq ft with gas heat and gas water heater and electric A/C.

LEFT SIDE:
Range - 40 amp (takes 2 spots)
Dish Washer - 20 amp
Kitchen Line - 20 amp
Kitchen Line 2 - 20 amp
Gas Furnace - 20 amp
Disposal - 15 amp
Bathroom 1 - 15 amp
Bedroom 1 and parking light - 2 x 15 amp ("piggy backed")

RIGHT SIDE:
Dryer - 30 amp (takes 2 spots)
Washing Mach - 20 amp
A/C - 30 amp (takes 2 spots)
Outside recep. - 15 amp
Liv. room - 15 amp
Bedroom 2 - 15 amp
Bedroom 3 - 15 amp

Is that sufficient?

Question 2:

I read that I'll have to pay for a 50 amp, GFI shutoff outside, and another 50 amp breaker inside at the main box - but I'm out of spaces. Will they "piggy back" other breakers to make room? Isn't that unsafe?

Question 3:

We had planned on putting the hot tub below our deck on the patio. There's a 115v outlet less than 5 feet away, so does that mean we can't put it there? I know the shutoff would have to be 5-10 feet away, but I'd have to put half the hot tub in the lawn to get it 5 feet from the outlet.

I appreciate any advice ya'll can give me. The quotes were up to ~$2000 to have the new panel put in, about half that to use the current one. That's a lot of money to spend on a new panel if I don't have to!

Thanks!
Pete
 
Re: Hot Tub install / replace main service / am I getting r

Originally posted by PDXTerra:

Question 1:

My first question has to do with my main 200 amp service - will they need to replace it?
That's a horribly unfair question with the information given, just so you know. Adding up handles is not how it's done. But I would venture to say no, you shouldn't have to add to your service for this.

Question 2:

I read that I'll have to pay for a 50 amp, GFI shutoff outside, and another 50 amp breaker inside at the main box - but I'm out of spaces. Will they "piggy back" other breakers to make room? Isn't that unsafe?
No, it is safe, provided the proper breakers are installed in your panel, and a real load calculation is performed to ensure that your panel's rating is not exceeded.

Question 3:

We had planned on putting the hot tub below our deck on the patio. There's a 115v outlet less than 5 feet away, so does that mean we can't put it there?
The two cannot co-exist. You move the hot tub, or the outlet. :)

You need to do your homework, find a reputable electrician in your area to perform the calculations and the work. Hope this helped. :)
 
Re: Hot Tub install / replace main service / am I getting r

george -

Thank you for your reply, I really appreciate the info, this helps tremendously. Sorry if I didn't provide enough info on the panel question, I don't know what my appliances are rated at (or the other values that factor into the equation). I guess we'll have to move our tub to another part of the patio.

I've tried to do as much research as I can. Other than going through the yellow pages, I've asked family/friends for references. Unfortunately, your trade has a bit of a catch-22: good electrical work goes "unseen" by Joe Q. Homeowner, so they forget who does the job 5 minutes after you leave. Bad work haunts people forever, so they remember every detail. I think people assume it either "works" or doesn't "work," and forget that there is craftsmanship involved, strict rules and codes, experience, etc. :)

Thanks again for the help!
 
Re: Hot Tub install / replace main service / am I getting r

It is likely that a creative electrician would be able to come up with a way of dealing with your installation that did not involve replacing your main panel. An uncreative fellow might well just add a subpanel adjacent to the existing main panel. There are also duplex breakers that might be used in your case that could free up a couple spaces.

As you have discovered, it is an expensive proposition to do this correctly, and involves some non-obvious things.

Its possible the outlet location might even work in your favor.

The best bet though is to get someone who has actually done a few dozen of these type of installs before. A lot of electricians have never done one and might not be able to do one cost effectively. Ask around.

[ October 18, 2005, 12:37 PM: Message edited by: petersonra ]
 
Re: Hot Tub install / replace main service / am I getting r

I happen to work in the power industry in portland and can give you our EC we use. I have never had a problem with them this is a company you could give a call to. Oregon Electric Group here is their web site.
http://www.oregon-electric.com/
 
Re: Hot Tub install / replace main service / am I getting r

Using the numbers that you provided the calculation for the service comes to less than a 100 amps for the house. This leaves you with plenty to add the tub.
Don?t change the service!

Not knowing what would be involved in the installation of the circuit I can?t give a price for the tub.

The existing receptacle can be blanked off to solve that problem although one will be required to be with-in 20 but no closer than 10 feet of the tub.
 
Re: Hot Tub install / replace main service / am I getting r

By my count I see only 18 breakers total in this panel. Seems odd for a 200 amp service. If you actually do have a 200 amp service with an 18 circuit panel you don't necessarily have to change the service. You have more than enough power for your needs. A sub panel is a perfectly acceptable way to get you more circuits, even if not very creative.
 
Re: Hot Tub install / replace main service / am I getting r

While I have never heard of a 18 space ITE load center if you look on the back of the door there should be a label which will have the model number on it. It should be something like G1836B1200 and maybe with a CU at the end indicating copper buss, The most common one is the G2040B1200CU which would leave you with two extra spaces. In no case is your panel over loaded as far as amount of current on it goes. The first two numbers after the "G" indicate the actual amount of spaces, the second two numbers indicate the amount of piggy back breakers that can be legaly installed into it. so a G20/40B1200cu panel can have up to 20 full space breakers or up to 20 half space breakers to give you 40 spaces total. But of course two-pole breakers can be bought in half space form they are very costly and in most cases very hard to get. so this leaves you with only being able to stack the single-pole breakers. If the model number only has "00" for the second set of numbers then half space breakers are not allowed!

Yes the hot tub will need a GFCI protected circuit as other have said, I found that installing the two-pole GFCI breaker in the panel and installing a low cost pull-out disconnect at the tub if the least costly since you will still need a two-pole breaker in the panel anyway.

This should give you enough info to tell an electrican what you would need done.

Good luck. :D
 
Re: Hot Tub install / replace main service / am I getting r

Wow, thanks everyone for your help. I feel better knowing that I'm not completely lost.

Hurk - you are scaring me a bit. In my profession (I write software) we call people like you "walking compilers" because they know everything about a computer/software and memorize all the commands.

I opened my breaker panel and thought I'd share a photo - if anything it might help others, it is B/W to keep the file small:

breakerlabel.jpg

If photo doesn't appear, click here

By your previous post I should have 2 breakers free. That appears to be the case on the front of the panel - there are knockouts on each side at the bottom. Unfortunately, when you remove the cover (FYI, I replaced cover right after this photo - I know enough not to leave it off!) there is no room for the breakers:

insidepanel.jpg

If photo doesn't appear, click here

Anyway, I have called a couple places (including Oregon Electric) and have been able to describe things better as a result of my post.

Thanks again everyone!

-Pete

[ October 19, 2005, 12:50 AM: Message edited by: PDXTerra ]
 
Re: Hot Tub install / replace main service / am I getting r

If Oregon is following the '05 NEC, then there is a good possibility that you will need to install an "Equipotential bond grid" around the hot tub if it is installed with some type of "paver" around it.
 
Re: Hot Tub install / replace main service / am I getting r

By your previous post I should have 2 breakers free. That appears to be the case on the front of the panel - there are knockouts on each side at the bottom. Unfortunately, when you remove the cover (FYI, I replaced cover right after this photo - I know enough not to leave it off!) there is no room for the breakers:
After looking at your photo I would say that you need to upgrade nothing. By simply relocating a single pole breaker or two you can make room for your new 2pole 50 GFCI breaker.
 
Re: Hot Tub install / replace main service / am I getting r

G2040
This tells me that this is a 20 to 40 circuit panel. I have used this panel in the past just because of the price. By using the ?mini? breakers it is possible to install 40 circuits in this panel.

There is no difference between the mini and a full sized breaker as far as safety is concerned.
:)
 
Re: Hot Tub install / replace main service / am I getting r

Hi, I cant offer much more technical advice here because it has already been dealt with fine. BUT.. one question you asked was NOT answerd here yet. You said you were told (I presume by the tub salesman) that it should cost you $350.00 to hook up the tub. Then you find it will cost you over $1000.00. A simple installation will cost about $900-1000 dollars, and a more complex one would cost more. Now IF the tub salesman told you it COULD cost over $1000.00 to hook it up...YOU MAY HAVE NOT BOIUGHT IT. So to protect a sale I think he down played the cost of hooking this thing up. Your posting is timely because I got a call the other day with someone asking for a price to hook up a hot tub...I came recommended. The person on the phone was very upset because she had already gotten 3 estimates (thats what she told me), she would not give me any prices she was quoted, but she said the bids were in the "THOUSANDS". I said, like more than (one) thousand and she repeated "THOUSANDS". I told here I am sure I could do it for a MUCH more reasonable price. So I went out to give her a price. travelled 35 mins to get there. The estimate was $950.00 and that included adding an outlet over 5 feet and less than 10 feet from the tub, as there was not one there in that range. It was a new house with 200A and space available for the breaker. I DID NOT GET THE JOB!! (yet) I am in Fairfield County Connecticut. I dont know what she expects to pay for this job, but if anyone can do it for less I am not so sure the will be making much money sonce you figure in all the overhead and whatnot. Maybe Joe the plumber will take a shot at it for the first time and do it for them?? (cheaper)
 
Re: Hot Tub install / replace main service / am I getting r

Yep, you are right on the money - the salesman told us (my wife and I) that it's around $350.00 for the install. Perhaps he was thinking in British Pounds.

FWIW, you can tell her that the estimates I've had are in the range of $1000.00->$1500.00. That's about 20% (on average) of what the tub costs, so initially that scares people off. After you think about it, you can easily spend over $4,000 on even a simple hot tub. I'm sure she spent quite a bit on the tub (and she'll spend more on chemicals, heating the thing, that oh-so-lovely first water bill, etc), so paying $1000 for the install is a bargain. I told my wife, "We're paying a lot to have it done right because getting electrocuted costs a lot more than paying an electrician to do the job." And like anything, doing it right the first time will cost us less than doing it twice.
 
Re: Hot Tub install / replace main service / am I getting r

I think it's time to get an electrician out to look at the job. Your panel is fine, you have space for another two pole breaker, you don't need a service upgrade. You are probably making this more difficult for yourself than it needs to be.
 
Re: Hot Tub install / replace main service / am I getting r

A question to clarify.

JWELECTRIC WROTE.

The existing receptacle can be blanked off to solve that problem although one will be required to be with-in 20 but no closer than 10 feet of the tub.
Yet GUDGUYHAM wrote

The estimate was $950.00 and that included adding an outlet over 5 feet and less than 10 feet from the tub, as there was not one there in that range.
I have seen these statements (ones close any ways) before. Is it 5 to 10 feet, or 10 to 20 for a residential home? I haven't done residential electric work in about 10 years and not back up to speed on all the code's yet. Thanks.
 
Re: Hot Tub install / replace main service / am I getting r

680.43 Indoor Installations.
(A) Receptacles. At least one 125-volt, 15- or 20-ampere receptacle on a general-purpose branch circuit shall be located not less than 1.5 m (5 ft) from, and not exceeding 3.0 m (10 ft) from, the inside wall of the spa or hot tub.
680.42 Outdoor Installations.
A spa or hot tub installed outdoors shall comply with the provisions of Parts I and II of this article, except as permitted in 680.42(A) and 680.42(B), that would otherwise apply to pools installed outdoors.

680.22 Area Lighting, Receptacles, and Equipment.
(3) Dwelling Unit(s). Where a permanently installed pool is installed at a dwelling unit(s), no fewer than one 125-volt 15- or 20-ampere receptacle on a general-purpose branch circuit shall be located not less than 3.0 m (10 ft) from, and not more than 6.0 m (20 ft) from, the inside wall of the pool. This receptacle shall be located not more than 2.0 m (6 ft 6 in.) above the floor, platform, or grade level serving the pool.
I separated the two quotes from the code book as the first one applies to INDOOR installations only and the second applies to the OUTDOOR installation.
:)

edited for spelling

[ October 21, 2005, 05:46 AM: Message edited by: jwelectric ]
 
Re: Hot Tub install / replace main service / am I getting r

Thanks for the clarification. It seems that a lot of people post one of the other code when answering the same question. Thanks for pointing out that it was indoor verse outdoors.
 
Re: Hot Tub install / replace main service / am I getting r

swimming pool sales people do the same thing,,they tell the buyer that its gonna be only a couple or three to get it hooked up,,then we go out and give them a price and they freak out,,,
 
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