Hot Tub question

[hardworkingstiff]

I reviewed 680 this morning and I am looking for some conformation of my understanding.

1st, here is the project. A hot tub installed outdoors about 3' from an existing deck. The hot tub is all non-metallic except for the actual motor. It requires a 50-amp 240-volt circuit. I plan on installing a 4-ckt subpanel (more than 5' away) as a disconnect (using #6 copper). The reason for the panel is to add low voltage lighting in the yard.

I believe I can run the #8 solid copper bonding wire from the motor housing to the sub-panel and am not required to run it back to the main panel (service disconnect) providing the sub-panel has at least a #8 copper ground installed back to the main panel (I don't know yet if I'm using a cable assembly or conduit/conductors). Confirmation?

Thanks,
HWS

 

[pierre]

Re: Hot Tub question

HWS
You do not need to run the solid 8 back to the 4 circuit panel. Remember you are bonding, not grounding, pay particular attention to the FPN directly following680.26 (A).

 

[hardworkingstiff]

Re: Hot Tub question

pierre,

Ok, I don't disagree with your statement. But I do need to run it somewhere, and it will be easier to run it to the subpanel instead of back to the main panel.

I'm installing (4) #8 copper wires (2-hots, 1-neutral, 1-ground) from the subpanel to the control box of the hot tub. Then a separate #8 bare solid to the exterior of the motor. The motor gets a ground through the circuit wiring, and the casing gets bonded through the #8 solid. No other metal parts out there. So can I take the #8 solid back to the subpanel, or does it need to go all the way back to the main panel?

Or, since there are no other metal parts, is it even required? (The equipotential ground, #8 solid).

 

[iwire]

Re: Hot Tub question

Originally posted by hardworkingstiff:
pierre,

Ok, I don't disagree with your statement. But I do need to run it somewhere, and it will be easier to run it to the subpanel instead of back to the main panel.

No you don't have to run it back to any panel.

All you have to do is connect it to the parts required by 680.26(B).

 

[hardworkingstiff]

Re: Hot Tub question

Originally posted by iwire:

No you don't have to run it back to any panel.

All you have to do is connect it to the parts required by 680.26(B).

I agree Bob. Since there is no other metal in the vicinity, then the #8 bonding wire is not required?

 

[pierre]

Re: Hot Tub question

If this is a listed assembly, and the motor is already bonded and you are using a nonmetallic installation, you probably do not need to do any bonding.

680.2
"Self-Contained Spa or Hot Tub. Factory-fabricated unit consisting of a spa or hot tub vessel with all watercirculating, heating, and control equipment integral to the unit. Equipment can include pumps, air blowers, heaters, lights, controls, sanitizer generators, and so forth."


"680.26 Bonding.
(A) Performance. The bonding required by this section shall be installed to eliminate voltage gradients in the pool area as prescribed.

FPN: This section does not require that the 8 AWG or larger solid copper bonding conductor be extended or attached to any remote panelboard, service equipment, or any electrode."


"(B) Bonded Parts. The parts specified in 680.26(B)(1) through (B)(5) shall be bonded together.

(1) Metallic Structural Components.

(2) Underwater Lighting.

(3) Metal Fittings.

(4) Electrical Equipment.

(5) Metal Wiring Methods and Equipment.


Remember do not confuse bonding of pools with grounding of pool equipment and circuits.

 

[hardworkingstiff]

Re: Hot Tub question

Originally posted by pierre:
Remember do not confuse bonding of pools with grounding of pool equipment and circuits.

Yea, that is the trick, huh.

Thanks pierre and iwire!

 

[jwelectric]

Re: Hot Tub question

hardworkingstiff

This tub that you are installing outside will need to comply with part II of 680.

680.42 Outdoor Installations.
A spa or hot tub installed outdoors shall comply with the provisions of Parts I and II of this article, except as permitted in 680.42(A) and 680.42(B), that would otherwise apply to pools installed outdoors.

680.42 (A) allows you to use a liquidtight flexible conduit for up to six feet and .42 (B) allows you to NOT bond the metal that holds the skirting.
Your referral to the wiring method;

(I don't know yet if I'm using a cable assembly or conduit/conductors). Confirmation?

680.21 Motors.
(A) Wiring Methods.
(1) General. The branch circuits for pool-associated motors shall be installed in rigid metal conduit, intermediate metal conduit, rigid nonmetallic conduit, or Type MC cable listed for the location. Other wiring methods and materials shall be permitted in specific locations or applications as covered in this section. Any wiring method employed shall contain an insulated copper equipment grounding conductor sized in accordance with 250.122 but not smaller than 12 AWG.

The interior of the dwelling unit is allowed to be wired in NM cable as outlined in .21 (A) (4):

680.21 Motors.
(A) Wiring Methods.
(4) One-Family Dwellings. In the interior of one-family dwellings, or in the interior of accessory buildings associated with a one-family dwelling, any of the wiring methods recognized in Chapter 3 of this Code that comply with the provisions of this paragraph shall be permitted. Where run in a cable assembly, the equipment grounding conductor shall be permitted to be uninsulated, but it shall be enclosed within the outer sheath of the cable assembly.

Based on your statement made in another post, ?Tim, I?m in Wilmington, maybe we should chat,? I can guarantee a close inspection.

 

[dillon3c]

Re: Hot Tub question

"Wilmington"
yeh JW,
Seems to me,I recall a young-gun "hot-shoe" Inspector from Wilmington.Didn't he say, he was cranking out what?...15 inspections a day!Talked like he was one very busy man too..

 

[jwelectric]

Re: Hot Tub question

I thought he said he was doing 15 rejections a day.

 

[dillon3c]

Re: Hot Tub question

"tipp'in my hat sir"..Hope you had a fine one..

Edited:-yeh!..your memory is correct sir..

[ June 19, 2005, 08:28 PM: Message edited by: dillon3c ]

 

[hardworkingstiff]

Re: Hot Tub question

Originally posted by jwelectric:
hardworkingstiff

....Based on your statement made in another post, ?Tim, I?m in Wilmington, maybe we should chat,? I can guarantee a close inspection.

That never bothers me, cause it is either right or it is not. Inspectors are inexpensive insurance and tutors. More than once I've been able to correct a misunderstanding.

It just seems odd now that you don't have to run that #8 solid back to the panel though.

 

[jwelectric]

Re: Hot Tub question

The equipment grounding conductor will bond the motor and panel back to the main.

I will advise you that if this tub is sitting on a concrete pad that you might have a problem with 680.26 (C).

 

[hardworkingstiff]

Re: Hot Tub question

jw,

This tub is sitting on a wooden deck. No metal anywhere around. The tub is all plastic. The control box is plastic. The only metal parts are the motor and my disconnect (which will be more than 5' from the tub).

I am curious though. What kind of problems would you suspect? I can guess that if the pad had rebar it would need to be bonded to the motor. What else? How would you bond an existing pad? Interesting possible condition.

 

[macmikeman]

Re: Hot Tub question

HWS, you have stated there is no metal anywhere around, and the control panel is plastic and the tub is plastic, but what about the H20 supply piping. Is there a metal water pipe supply?, or does this hot tub get filled up with the garden hose?

 

[hardworkingstiff]

Re: Hot Tub question

Originally posted by macmikeman:
HWS, you have stated there is no metal anywhere around, and the control panel is plastic and the tub is plastic, but what about the H20 supply piping. Is there a metal water pipe supply?, or does this hot tub get filled up with the garden hose?

Garden hose. It is just a hot tub in the back yard. I've never been involved in something like this and seems too simple. I remember wiring pools in the mid 70's and we did a lot of work for a little electricity.

 

[jwelectric]

Re: Hot Tub question

I am one of those who believe if something is left alone it will die.

680.26 (C) states that if the rebar is not present that a grid must be built with #8 bare copper. This has been the topic of debate in certain areas of the field and usually ends with conflicting opinions.

I know of one case here in NC where a concrete pad was dug up because of the Hot Tub. They went back with a deck instead of the pad.

 

[infinity]

Re: Hot Tub question

I will advise you that if this tub is sitting on a concrete pad that you might have a problem with 680.26 (C).

Would this section apply to a spa sitting on concrete? I see nothing in 680.42 that references 680.26(C). I thought that 680.26(C) only applied to pools?

 

[jwelectric]

Re: Hot Tub question

Originally posted by infinity:

I will advise you that if this tub is sitting on a concrete pad that you might have a problem with 680.26 (C).

Would this section apply to a spa sitting on concrete? I see nothing in 680.42 that references 680.26(C). I thought that 680.26(C) only applied to pools?

here is the reference

680.42 Outdoor Installations.
A spa or hot tub installed outdoors shall comply with the provisions of Parts I and II of this article, except as permitted in 680.42(A) and 680.42(B), that would otherwise apply to pools installed outdoors.

680.26 Equipotential Bonding.
(A) Performance. The equipotential bonding required by this section shall be installed to eliminate voltage gradients in the pool area as prescribed.

 

[hardworkingstiff]

Re: Hot Tub question

jw, where in Carolina are you?

"I am one of those who believe if something is left alone it will die."

I'm not sure what you meant by that jw?

Then you posted:
"680.26 (C) states that if the rebar is not present that a grid must be built with #8 bare copper. This has been the topic of debate in certain areas of the field and usually ends with conflicting opinions."

And to that I say..... GREAT!