Hot Tubs and 2020 210.8F

[dwils1980]

210.8F requires all outdoor outlets to be GFCI protected. I’m running into issues with inspectors considering a spa panel with a 50amp GFCI breaker as an outdoor outlet and requiring the gfi be installed at the source to protect the hot tub and the spa panel. My argument is that the spa panel is listed as a main lug load center which I see as not requiring GFCI protection since any outdoor load centers would not require the GFCI protection. I’ve also used these same spa panels for AC condensers with a GFCI breaker feeding the condenser within the load center. I would like to know what other people’s thoughts are on this situation and if the article’s intent is to cover all outdoor electrical enclosures including load centers.

 

[brantmacga]

Eaton identifies their spa disconnect as a “Panel”.

Square D identifies theirs as a 2-pole load center.

Both are printed on the box and in the instructions.


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[brantmacga]

Also 210.8 does not specify the GFCI protection has to be installed within the circuit; receptacles can be WR GFCI type, so I don’t understand inspectors logic.

Also see 680.44(A); if your tub had integral GFCI protection, no other GFCI would be required. As in, your disconnect would not require GFCI protection.


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[wwhitney]

Article 100: "Outlet. A point on the wiring system at which current is taken to supply utilization equipment"

The spa panel is part of the wiring system.

Cheers, Wayne

 

[dwils1980]

Eaton identifies their spa disconnect as a “Panel”.

Square D identifies theirs as a 2-pole load center.

Both are printed on the box and in the instructions.


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I am very much aware of that and that has been my argu

Also 210.8 does not specify the GFCI protection has to be installed within the circuit; receptacles can be WR GFCI type, so I don’t understand inspectors logic.


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The article reads that the outlet shall be GFCI protected, NEC definition of outlet reads “ A point on the wiring system at which current is taken to supply utilization equipment”, this is more than just WR GFCI receptacles but also any surface mounted enclosure outlet such as pull out ac disconnects or even a surface mounted bell box. That’s how I read this section but definitely looking for other thoughts

 

[dwils1980]

Article 100: "Outlet. A point on the wiring system at which current is taken to supply utilization equipment"

The spa panel is part of the wiring system.

Cheers, Wayne

So is an outdoor multi circuit load center, do outdoor sub panels require GFCI protection then?

 

[dwils1980]

So is an outdoor multi circuit load center, do outdoor sub panels require GFCI protection then?

How about a meter main combo?

 

[brantmacga]

Article 100: "Outlet. A point on the wiring system at which current is taken to supply utilization equipment"

The spa panel is part of the wiring system.

Cheers, Wayne

How would you GFCI protect an outdoor MCB load center if it was the main for dwelling?


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[dwils1980]

How would you GFCI protect an outdoor MCB load center if it was the main for dwelling?


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How about a sub panel off the main panel

 

[brantmacga]

I am very much aware of that and that has been my argu

The article reads that the outlet shall be GFCI protected, NEC definition of outlet reads “ A point on the wiring system at which current is taken to supply utilization equipment”, this is more than just WR GFCI receptacles but also any surface mounted enclosure outlet such as pull out ac disconnects or even a surface mounted bell box. That’s how I read this section but definitely looking for other thoughts

The point at which power is taken is the load side lugs. You have GFCI protection there. Nothing says the circuit feeding the enclosure must have GFCI protection.


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[brantmacga]

I’d also like to point out this spa circuit is a feeder, not a branch circuit. 210.8 applies to branch circuit wiring.


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[wwhitney]

How would you GFCI protect an outdoor MCB load center if it was the main for dwelling?

Sorry, I meant to imply that the panel is entirely part of the wiring system, and so it does not have any "points at which current is taken".

The feeder to the panel, the panel innards, and the branch circuit to the hot tub are all part of the premises wiring system. The outlet occurs in the hot tub junction box where the hot tub wiring is connected to the premises wiring.

Cheers, Wayne

 

[brantmacga]

Sorry, I meant to imply that the panel is entirely part of the wiring system, and so it does not have any "points at which current is taken".

The feeder to the panel, the panel innards, and the branch circuit to the hot tub are all part of the premises wiring system. The outlet occurs in the hot tub junction box where the hot tub wiring is connected to the premises wiring.

Cheers, Wayne

I definitely misunderstood you then, sorry.


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