- Location
- Windsor, CO NEC: 2017
- Occupation
- Service Manager
Why is it that I can't find a code stating that Hot Tubs that are hard wired need to be GFI protected? I find receptacle types need GFI protection, but not hard-wired? 
Hot Tubs and GFI's
- Thread starter George Stolz
- Start date
- Status
- Location
- Massachusetts
Re: Hot Tubs and GFI's
Because there is no requirement for that.
Unless the unit says to GFCI protect it then 110.3(B)
Because there is no requirement for that.
Unless the unit says to GFCI protect it then 110.3(B)
- Location
- Windsor, CO NEC: 2017
- Occupation
- Service Manager
Re: Hot Tubs and GFI's
Doesn't that seem bizarre?
Doesn't that seem bizarre?
bphgravity
Senior Member
- Location
- Florida
Re: Hot Tubs and GFI's
Apparently, the CMP determined that there was no initial substantiation for having permanently connected pump motors gfci protected. It was thus eliminated during the 2002 reorganizing of Article 680. There were several proposals requesting to have the requirement reinstated to the 2005 however no one could provided significant substantiation why gfci protection would be needed. All submitted reports, including those from OSHA indicated all injuries and deaths assoicated with pool equipment resulted from miswired or unmaintained cord-and-plug connected pump motors.
I guess there will have to be a documented death of a person contacting a pump motor that is both hard wired and not gfci protected and have evidence that gfci protection would have saved the person's life.
Apparently, the CMP determined that there was no initial substantiation for having permanently connected pump motors gfci protected. It was thus eliminated during the 2002 reorganizing of Article 680. There were several proposals requesting to have the requirement reinstated to the 2005 however no one could provided significant substantiation why gfci protection would be needed. All submitted reports, including those from OSHA indicated all injuries and deaths assoicated with pool equipment resulted from miswired or unmaintained cord-and-plug connected pump motors.
I guess there will have to be a documented death of a person contacting a pump motor that is both hard wired and not gfci protected and have evidence that gfci protection would have saved the person's life.
charlie
Senior Member
- Location
- Indianapolis
Re: Hot Tubs and GFI's
In my opinion, a good grounding system is better than a GFCI. A GFCI will get zapped by lightning or line surges but the grounding system will hang tough. The cord and plug connected equipment has a way of losing the grounding pin on the cord but a hard wired unit is not moved.
In my opinion, a good grounding system is better than a GFCI. A GFCI will get zapped by lightning or line surges but the grounding system will hang tough. The cord and plug connected equipment has a way of losing the grounding pin on the cord but a hard wired unit is not moved.
electricman2
Senior Member
- Location
- North Carolina
- Occupation
- Retired Electrical Contractor
Re: Hot Tubs and GFI's
I have never seen a hot tub that did not specify a GFCI circuit. Has anyone?
I have never seen a hot tub that did not specify a GFCI circuit. Has anyone?
- Location
- Windsor, CO NEC: 2017
- Occupation
- Service Manager
Re: Hot Tubs and GFI's
Still seems kinda weird. Okay, we've got to follow listings, but if 100% of Hot Tubs require GFI in their listing, wouldn't the code have a word on it? Even a seemingly unimportant comment to an installer makes the cut. Look at the FPN under the definition of GFCI, for example. Do I need to know the current-to-ground value for a GFI to trip? That's a manufacture spec, IMO.
I can't say in truth that I look at the directions of every light I hang, appliance I plug in, etc, but I install them according to code and am covered. I'm not making my point well, but am I getting across? Anybody else confused by this situation, or do I have way too much time on my hands?
Charlie, the grounding system is independent of the GFI, isn't it?
Still seems kinda weird. Okay, we've got to follow listings, but if 100% of Hot Tubs require GFI in their listing, wouldn't the code have a word on it? Even a seemingly unimportant comment to an installer makes the cut. Look at the FPN under the definition of GFCI, for example. Do I need to know the current-to-ground value for a GFI to trip? That's a manufacture spec, IMO.
I can't say in truth that I look at the directions of every light I hang, appliance I plug in, etc, but I install them according to code and am covered. I'm not making my point well, but am I getting across? Anybody else confused by this situation, or do I have way too much time on my hands?
Charlie, the grounding system is independent of the GFI, isn't it?
bphgravity
Senior Member
- Location
- Florida
Re: Hot Tubs and GFI's
The code is not a product standard. It is an installation standard. Many hottubs have internal gfci protection or double insulation that would not necessitate the use of a gfci at the branch circuit or feeder.
charlie
Senior Member
- Location
- Indianapolis
Re: Hot Tubs and GFI's
Assume a home where a GFCI receptacle was installed to protect a hot tub. What happens if the grounding is lost and the GFCI fails (I know, it is as stretch)? If it is hardwired and no GFCI protection is provided, the grounding is much more likely to remain intact.
You are not missing anything, I agree with you. I was making a general statement that an assured ground is, in my opinion, better than a GFCI protected circuit.
Assume a home where a GFCI receptacle was installed to protect a hot tub. What happens if the grounding is lost and the GFCI fails (I know, it is as stretch)? If it is hardwired and no GFCI protection is provided, the grounding is much more likely to remain intact.
- Location
- Windsor, CO NEC: 2017
- Occupation
- Service Manager
Re: Hot Tubs and GFI's
Admittedly, I've only done one hot tub, a long while ago. I remember looking it up in the code at the time, not finding a GFI requirement and being confused. I installed a GFI per the instructions sent ahead of the tub, and that was that. The question still lingered though.
I guess it's a non-issue. Thanks for all the replies!
Admittedly, I've only done one hot tub, a long while ago. I remember looking it up in the code at the time, not finding a GFI requirement and being confused. I installed a GFI per the instructions sent ahead of the tub, and that was that. The question still lingered though.
I guess it's a non-issue. Thanks for all the replies!
Re: Hot Tubs and GFI's
I am as far from a hot tub expert as I think there is. but I have come across one recently that I cant figure out..it has a GFI disconnect outside by the tub. I hooked up the GFI as you would in a PB. Groung to groung bar. Neutral to breaker neutral from GFI to neutral bar. Black and red to breaker. I have power to tub and tub doeasnt work. The hot tube people said it was hooked up wrong...something baout groung(ing). Does anyone have a diagram?
I am as far from a hot tub expert as I think there is. but I have come across one recently that I cant figure out..it has a GFI disconnect outside by the tub. I hooked up the GFI as you would in a PB. Groung to groung bar. Neutral to breaker neutral from GFI to neutral bar. Black and red to breaker. I have power to tub and tub doeasnt work. The hot tube people said it was hooked up wrong...something baout groung(ing). Does anyone have a diagram?
luke warmwater
Senior Member
Re: Hot Tubs and GFI's
cwclifton,
is your neutral bar bonded to the disconnect can??
It should be isolated. Check that first.
cwclifton,
is your neutral bar bonded to the disconnect can??
It should be isolated. Check that first.
hey_poolboy
Senior Member
- Location
- Illinois
Re: Hot Tubs and GFI's
cwclifton,
Admittedly I am a newbie, but I worked in the pool and spa industry for years. If you can tell me the brand name I may be able to hook you up.
Some brands use a 3 wire system. Upon opening up the load box in the spa you would find only spaces for two hots and a ground. These tubs have no components that require a neut. In this case, you must not attach the load N. into the breaker. It must be terminated in the N. bar. along with the breaker pigtail. In most cases if you look at the paperwork accompanying a 2-pole GFCI you would find this wiring setup diagrammed in the most obscure part.
cwclifton,
Admittedly I am a newbie, but I worked in the pool and spa industry for years. If you can tell me the brand name I may be able to hook you up.
Some brands use a 3 wire system. Upon opening up the load box in the spa you would find only spaces for two hots and a ground. These tubs have no components that require a neut. In this case, you must not attach the load N. into the breaker. It must be terminated in the N. bar. along with the breaker pigtail. In most cases if you look at the paperwork accompanying a 2-pole GFCI you would find this wiring setup diagrammed in the most obscure part.
- Status