Hot tubs reloaded!

[dnem]

For the 2011NEC proposals, I think someone needs to address the "unpaved" wording in 680.26. . Every change, even a single word, can have unintended consequences. . And this word did change some things.

#1] It makes you put a bonding loop around an aboveground pool that's setup in an otherwise undisturbed yard. . You're not just removing grass for the pool circle and leveling and adding sand. . You're now required to go out 18" to 24" into the undisturbed yard and dig or rent a knife trencher.

Are homeowners going to pull pool permits for an aboveground pool if they have to pay for the permit and pay to rent a trencher ?

Will it be safer ? . If we junk all of our cars and walk everywhere, we'll be safer, but I don't see that happening. . The better question is: Is it reasonable ?

#2] It makes you put a bonding loop under "unpaved surfaces" and keeps the nonconductive "exemption" back in the pool shell paragraph of 680.26(B)(1).

Anybody wanna volunteer to take a "stab" at tweaking 680.26 ?

 

[dnem]

No you never have to bond wood [not yet, I'm sure they're considering that for 2011]
But do you have to run a bonding wire under a wood deck ? . The answer is: Maybe, it depends on some variables.

If the top deck surface is less than 6" from the surface of the ground, then the answer is yes you need a bonding loop wire, #8 [680.26(B)(2)(b)(1)] around the whole pool [680.26(B)(2)(b)(2)] 18" to 24" from the pool [680.26(B)(2)(b)(4)] but you can lay it on the surface of the ground under the deck and tack it down.

If the top deck surface is more than 6" from the surface of the ground and the deck is continuous around the entire pool perimeter, then the answer is no bonding loop required.

If the top deck surface is more than 6" from the surface of the ground but the deck is not continuous around the entire pool perimeter, then the answer is yes you need a bonding loop wire, #8 [680.26(B)(2)(b)(1)] around the whole pool [680.26(B)(2)(b)(2)] 18" to 24" from the pool [680.26(B)(2)(b)(4)] but you can lay it on the surface of the ground under the deck and tack it down. . But if there's access to enter under the deck you might have to protect the wire in some way or just go ahead and bury it 4" to 6" below the ground [680.26(B)(2)(b)(5)]. . In the pool perimeter areas that there is no deck, the loop must be buried 4" to 6" below finished grade [680.26(B)(2)(b)(5)].

David

OK ! Which one of you knuckleheads posted this wrong information !?

Oh Yeah, It was me

I need to throw myself on the mercy of the court and plead temporary insanity. . This came up at our IAEI meeting again and it was pointed out that some inspectors are not noticing that 680.26(B)(2)(b)(5) uses the word subgrade.

So let me try to correct my answer. . The question was:
But do you have to run a bonding wire under a wood deck ?.
The real answer is YES

In my original answer I talked about the difference between the height of the deck surface and the surface of the ground. . That doesn't matter. . The deck surface might be considered finished grade but finished grade is not addressed anywhere in 680.26. . The subgrade is the surface of the ground.

We're used to the type of language in T300.5 which uses the word "cover" and Note #1 says cover is defined as the shortest distance between a point on the top surface of the directburied conductor or of the raceway and the top surface of finished grade, concrete or cover. . So burial depth is measured from the finished surface.

But in 680.26 the equipotential ring depth is measured from the ground itself, the height of the grass, or the thickness of the concrete, or the elevation of the deck is ignored.

Our building inspectors are also telling me that subgrade refers to grade before top soil is added. . So in some instances, 4" to 6" below the top of the dirt isn't low enough if top soil has been added.

Unfortunately this means that the ring requirement is more extensive than I had anticipated. . The 4" to 6" burial depth applies even if you're surrounding the whole pool with a raised deck. . Skipping the ring entirely or stapling it to the surface of the ground is not option stated in 680.26(B)(2)(b)(5).

It's not a question of if I agree or disagree with what is required. . It's not my decision to determine what is code. . I'm just the messenger.

I would definitely put a call in to the inspector of your jurisdiction before you make a determination about the equipotential ring under a raised deck.

Sorry for the original bad information !

 

[elohr46]

I'm just looking to install to NEC code not for loopholes. I'm going to go with the idea that you have to create a equipotential bonding grid whether portable or permanent. In this case can it be a loop of #8 bare CU around the tub 6" in the dirt as this tub is going on pavers and is plastic. Does it get attached to the tub or disconnect? 680.26(B) makes it sound like it doesn't need to? I think I will connect to the disco anyways but..

It gets bonded to the water and/or pump motor housing, 2008 nec.

 

[C3PO]

I am not trying to argue, I am just curius. Some of the cabins up in the mountains around here will have a hot tub on a wood deck. Some of these decks are 20+ feet in the air. Would you still have to put in a bonding grid underground?:-?
Or not since it is not grade accesable?:-?

 

[M. D.]

So let me try to correct my answer. . The question was:
But do you have to run a bonding wire under a wood deck ?.
The real answer is YES

First,.. thanks for the correction

Second,.. "real answer" according to whom, and can I view any minuets of the meeting???

Third ,... not that you would have ,.. but this is an example of why edits should have a time limit now we all know what correction was and why it was needed... thanks again .

 

[dnem]

First,.. thanks for the correction

Second,.. "real answer" according to whom, and can I view any minuets of the meeting???

That meeting should not be viewed as the authority so the minutes don't matter. . What was discussed is either right or it's wrong.

Some things are a matter of interpretation. . In this case the wording used is "subgrade". . Altho there might be a dispute over the adding of top soil, the one thing that is not a matter of interpretation is that subgrade is not the same thing as finished grade. . The 4" to 6" measurement of 680.26(B)(2)(b)(5) is not measured from finished grade but rather subgrade. . This would make deck height irrelevant.

Any good inspector will first attempt to determine actually what the code actually says. . An ambiguous or confusing code wording would need an interpretation and the NEC Handbook and the code cycle ROP would be a good place to go for guidance in making an interpretation. . Other resources are also helpful.

Then comes the application of common sense. . It is the impossible for the code to cover every scenario and so specific facts of the specific installation need to be factored in.

How an individual inspector would apply common sense to a pool completely surround by a raised deck is a question that needs to be asked to the individual inspector.

Third ,... not that you would have ,.. but this is an example of why edits should have a time limit now we all know what correction was and why it was needed... thanks again .

I would never edit for any other reason than grammar or sentence structure that creates confusion. . I think a time limit on editing would be fine. . We have it on the IAEI message board. . If anyone is concerned with a typing mistake they didn't catch before posting, they can read their post right away and correct immediately. . Long term editing isn't needed and creates other problems, just like you said.

 

[M. D.]

That meeting should not be viewed as the authority so the minutes don't matter. . What was discussed is either right or it's wrong.....
.

I am the kind of guy that would enjoy that discussion is all,.. I'll assume there aren't anyy to view .....

 

[dnem]

I am the kind of guy that would enjoy that discussion is all,.. I'll assume there aren't anyy to view .....

Our minutes have always been about 2 sentences of summary of an entire conversation.

The interesting part of the conversation was when the word "subgrade" came up and everyone was wondering why noone had noticed that word before.