Hotel conversion getting full kitchens. ugh!

[bullheimer]

boy i'm out of touch, NONE of the examples in Appx D add in anything for the bathroom ckt, so it must be included in the general lighting load as well.

and since i'm back here again, what in the world does THIS mean?

( i have 3 ranges on one floor fed from one panel. i figure to use 14KW from column C in table220.55), i would like to know what on earth they are talking about when they say, right after Note 4:

"Where two or more single phase ranges are supplied by a 3 phase, 4 wire feeder" (which this is, at least to the panel feeding the ranges, which is what i assume they are talking about) "the total load shall be calculated on the basis of twice the maximum number connected between any two phases." [Pg 130 2011 handbook]
the maximum number is going to be one, to balance the load, so does that mean 2? i.e., since the ranges are 11.7KW, use 23.4KW instead of 14KW? that makes absolutely no sense at all to me, can anybody explain this Double Speak?

 

[Smart $]

... that makes absolutely no sense at all to me, can anybody explain this Double Speak?

It's just a way to "offset" the demand for 3?, since Table 220.55 gives 1? demand.

The ranges demand load on the feeder to that panel are calculated:

For 208Y/120-V, 3-phase, 4-wire system,
Ranges:
Maximum number between any two phase legs = 1
2 ? 1 = 2.
Table 220.55 demand = 11,000 VA
Demand on each phase = 11,000 VA ? 2 = 5,500 VA
Equivalent 3-phase load = 16,500 VA
​

You would use 16,500VA for the ranges in your calculation for sizing the feeder to this panel.

 

[growler]

plans? what the heck are plans? i have a basic layout of where the appliances, lites and switches are going. NO electrical plans. is it just where i live? is it me? is there a shortage of architects that know how to draw electrical blueprints? do they charge too much? plans! i'd like to say we don't need no stinkin plans, but SHOW ME SOME FREAKIN PLANS!!! PLEASE!!! how bout an elec. engineer in there somewhere as well, how bout the data sheet from the appliances. something ANYTHING

A set of plans is not necessary to get a contractor to bid a job But has your friend the GC checked to see what will be necessary to get a permit for this project?

If this is old motel building there is a real good chance that even the service is not going to be large enough to cover all these kitchens. There would have been no reason to oversize that much when the structure was built.

When you start converting these rooms into extended stay type living spaces there is a good change that the local authorities will make the owners bring everything up to code. These are not to be confused with a house because this is a dwelling but commercial property open to the public. You may have to raise every receptacle in the place to meet ADA requirements and the GC may be stuck with ramps and ADA type bathrooms.

Without a set of plans be carefull what you promise to do on your bid.

 

[bullheimer]

thanks, in the range section for two phase (where do you getta keyboard with a phase symbol?) it says 14KW for the 3 ranges, and 17 for 4, , it has to be less for three phase since if i add that load in after the derates i still multiply by not just the voltage, but the voltage x 1.73, which almost cuts it in half anyway. so i don't understand that what you are saying is correct. the 1.73 is going to adjust for that, I THINK!!!!!!

anyway, only one unit is spec'd out as handicapped. this is a newer building built in the 90s and after doing the math, i dont need to change the 150A breakers because my load was only 137A, and the 200A feeders are only loaded in the 160A range, so, even tho three out of five panels are full of breakers, i will not have to change feeders, spendy breakers in the main panel, add sub panels or do panel changes. at least according to my hours of calcs, which i am pretty confident in.

even if you are correct in that range figure, it isnt much different from the chart, and the numbers that are on there,
but the way bids are going these days, i will probably not get it, because i put in about 10,000 for actually making a PROFIT. if something happens and i am dumber than i think with these calcs, that extra will get eaten up, but i should still be able to pull it off.

after all was said and done it only came out to $4/sq.ft for the job, with them doing all the rock removal. a 1000ft roll of 6.3 SER is only $800 and change and i need to install 1060 ft. QO tandems and afci's are murder enuf tho, at $46 for afci's, which is $20 less than i thought.

thx again and i'll keep my legs crossed.

 

[satcom]

A set of plans is not necessary to get a contractor to bid a job But has your friend the GC checked to see what will be necessary to get a permit for this project?

If this is old motel building there is a real good chance that even the service is not going to be large enough to cover all these kitchens. There would have been no reason to oversize that much when the structure was built.

When you start converting these rooms into extended stay type living spaces there is a good change that the local authorities will make the owners bring everything up to code. These are not to be confused with a house because this is a dwelling but commercial property open to the public. You may have to raise every receptacle in the place to meet ADA requirements and the GC may be stuck with ramps and ADA type bathrooms.

Without a set of plans be carefull what you promise to do on your bid.

We have a few of these midnight conversions in my area, they were started by less then qualified or experienced GC's who thought he could pick up the motel and convert into apartments, but as you noted the conversions usuall don't make it thru the plan review, without some expensive changes, in most cases it is cheaper to level the structure and build new.
The two in my area were started without permits and were both issued stop orders, they are still boarded up waiting for a new EC or a fire witch ever comes first.

 

[augie47]

bullheimer, check you PMs

 

[bullheimer]

bid it at 55K w/no new feeders or panels. another bid was double mine and called for all new feeders, main breakers and subpanels. i think he did his calcs without the 1.73 multiplier.

 

[Smart $]

thanks, in the range section for two phase (where do you getta keyboard with a phase symbol?) it says 14KW for the 3 ranges, and 17 for 4, , it has to be less for three phase since if i add that load in after the derates i still multiply by not just the voltage, but the voltage x 1.73, which almost cuts it in half anyway. so i don't understand that what you are saying is correct. the 1.73 is going to adjust for that, I THINK!!!!!!

...

My keyboard doesn't have a "?" key. It can be "typed" by using a character code. Press and hold the ALT key while keying 0216 on the number pad then release the ALT key.

I did not develop the prescibed method, but it reminds me of calculations on tax forms :grin: It does work. You have to remember that when 3 ranges are supplied by a 1? system (two line conductors), the Table values provide kW credit for the 3 ranges to each of 2 line conductors. On a 3? system, you only get kW credit for 2 ranges connected to each of 3 line conductors. This is where the 2 times the max connected per phase comes in and why you only get to use the demand of 2 ranges rather than 3.

Once you have the demand, you divide by 2 to get the per phase load. This actually applies your 1.73 without you knowing it... because you are working with kW values rather than volts and amperes. Then you multiply that value by 3 (for 3 line conductors) to get the total load on the feeder's system.

 

[bullheimer]

which is close to half, (.27, away from two as a divisor). which in turn allowed me to retain the present breakers and feeders.
and i suppose this is all one needs to know about why 3 (the trick for phase symbol did not work for me) phase is preferable to single.

tomorrow is the bid date for the generals, and possibly some more elec bids will come in prior to that. i am sure somebody else that knows what the formula is will submit a bid closer to mine. maybe even lower. i feel like i padded it enuf to actually make money on it.

Hey smart $, thanks for the explanation. I will probably understand it better after i read it over about five times. what do you mean at the end about multiplying the load by three? it should be (hopefully,) close to equal on each phase

 

[renosteinke]

Just a few idle thoughts - appropriate since this is the 'business' section!

I've seen a number of such hotels 'uopgrade' the rooms to become 'kitchenettes.' Here are my observations:

First, there has ALWAYS been government money involved, usually linked to some manner of 'welfare' or 'help the homeless' program. The way these things are counted, a man living in such a place -no matter his tenure or income situation- is counted as 'homeless.' I'll bet your local County Social Services is involved in this project some way.

This means: no need to sharpen your pencil or feel any sympathy for the slumlord. The only reason the slumlord is bothering is because he has his eyes on nice, juicy "Section 8" income. (You'd be amazed at the 'market rates' they charge!)

Standards are fairly low; a common 'kitchenette' is nothing but a counter-high fridge, Mr. Coffee, and microwave set next to the bed. The 'sink' might just be the bathroom sink.

Manufacturers have sprung up to serve this market. Everything from combo fridge/micro units, 120v 2-burner cooktops, and miniature pre-fab kitchens are made. (I think "Acme Kitchens" is one of the premium manufacturers). For you, this means you need to make the extra effort to get cut-in sheets, etc.

Otherwise ... having done a few such upgrades .... there's another sort of circumstance that leads to such a job.

The other situation is when a commercial hotel needs to upgrade its' suites to accomodate the business traveller.

IF the guy really wants a proper kitchen and is really doing that scale of a remodel, the easiest solution might be to set a panel in each room to feed the new circuits. Then all you need to run are the feeders- and the tap rules can help you there.

 

[Smart $]

...

The other situation is when a commercial hotel needs to upgrade its' suites to accomodate the business traveller.

...

I'm seeing more of this type become available....

http://www.intownsuites.com/

 

[cowboyjwc]

Don't forget carbon monoxide alarms.

 

[bullheimer]

thanks for those. this place is on a golf course. Homestead in lyden wa.

heres a link to th' ghet-to http://www.homeaway.com/vacation-rental/p273252#section-avail

actually, i dont know where this is exactly on the property, but it sure looks an aweful lot like the remodel job they are going to do. must be the second go-round

 

[bullheimer]

It's just a way to "offset" the demand for 3?, since Table 220.55 gives 1? demand.

The ranges demand load on the feeder to that panel are calculated:

For 208Y/120-V, 3-phase, 4-wire system,
Ranges:
Maximum number between any two phase legs = 1
2 ? 1 = 2.
Table 220.55 demand = 11,000 VA
Demand on each phase = 11,000 VA ? 2 = 5,500 VA
Equivalent 3-phase load = 16,500 VA
​

You would use 16,500VA for the ranges in your calculation for sizing the feeder to this panel.

okay i am lost on this part. WERE you saying, in effect, that the 1.73 is just for use if they buy a Three Phase Range?

 

[Smart $]

okay i am lost on this part. WERE you saying, in effect, that the 1.73 is just for use if they buy a Three Phase Range?

No...

I'm saying when doing these calculations for single phase ranges on a three phase system that the 1.73 factor is hidden because you are working with power values (VA or kVA) instead of volts or amp's.