house panel

[hhsting]

I simply don't understand why the service conductors don't go into a gutter at or near the closest point of entry to the structure, and, the (2) service disconnects tapped at that point.

That wouldn't be my first choice of distribution, but, just going off what is drawn.


I don't see the need for a Main OCPD then the feeders being Sub-Metered.


If you only have (2) Service disconnects to feed, why aren't the service entrance conductors simply brought into a gutter at or near the closest point of entry, and, the (2) Service disconnects metered separately at that point without the Main OCPD ?

JAP>

Building is existing and owner says no to povide new utility service thru underground. You can see post #3 Figure #1 two utility service into one building. To eliminate one utility service bring service disconnect of tenant A to basement trough and feed tenant A panelboard.

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[jap]

Building is existing and owner says no to povide new utility service thru underground. You can see post #3 Figure #1 two utility service into one building. To eliminate one utility service bring service disconnect of tenant A to basement trough and feed tenant A panelboard.

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So if the service conductors are already allowed inside the building in your area evidently, and both existing services seem to be fed from a common point at this time,
If you move the service disconnect of Tenant A to the basement, why the need for the Main OCPD ?

Why not just tap the existing service conductors that are there now, instead of installing a Main Breaker ahead ?


JAP>

 

[jap]

I'm just trying to figure out where the need for the Main Breaker came into play.


JAP>

 

[jap]

The one thing that's missing is where is the existing metering for the service conductors?

Is all of this CT'd outside the building?

Is the Main Breaker being installed to protect the Service Conductors now that there's 2 loads on a line where before there was only 1?


JAP>

 

[hhsting]

The one thing that's missing is where is the existing metering for the service conductors?

Is all of this CT'd outside the building?

Is the Main Breaker being installed to protect the Service Conductors now that there's 2 loads on a line where before there was only 1?


JAP>

At the each individual main breakers.

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[hhsting]

I'm just trying to figure out where the need for the Main Breaker came into play.


JAP>

Service comes from overhead goes into brick wall to be considered outside. Once in basement disconnect needs to be installed to disconnect all ungrounded conductor nearest point of entry no?

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[jap]

Service comes from overhead goes into brick wall to be considered outside. Once in basement disconnect needs to be installed to disconnect all ungrounded conductor nearest point of entry no?

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Yes, but your allowed 6 movements.

You only have 2.

Are the service conductors not large enough to the basement to carry the load of both combined? Thus the need to install a main OCPD ahead of them to reduce the amperage on the service conductors?

Jap>

 

[jap]

In our area the service utility metering always comes ahead of the first means of overcurrent protection, not after.

Then, if individual metering is needed on the feeder breakers to the tenant spaces, customer owned Emon Meters are installed or the like.

That's why it's interesting to me to see unmetered power coming directly into an OCPD first, then sub metered off of the load side.

Jap>

 

[xformer]

In commercial building with multiple occupancy and tenants, house panel which supplies common area power and lights need separate service? Where in code it says house panel cannot be fed from tenant panel feeder breaker or tap from load side of service main breaker trough?

Code Section 240.24(B) - 2017 NFPA 70

 

[kwired]

Where in code it says house panel cannot be fed from tenant panel feeder breaker or tap from load side of service main breaker trough?

Code Section 240.24(B) - 2017 NFPA 70

Not exactly what it says though.

What that section covers is occupant's access to their overcurrent devices, and not what panel can they be supplied from.

Put all tenant panels in a common area or even in single panel in common area and they all likely have access and this part of code is satisified. If it is not desired for others to have access to other tenants devices then you have to watch which overcurrent devices go where or how access may be gained, but can't keep any tenant from having access to devices that supply their space.

Building management and supervision can allow for some variances on what is allowed.

 

[jap]

Not exactly what it says though.

What that section covers is occupant's access to their overcurrent devices, and not what panel can they be supplied from.

Put all tenant panels in a common area or even in single panel in common area and they all likely have access and this part of code is satisified. If it is not desired for others to have access to other tenants devices then you have to watch which overcurrent devices go where or how access may be gained, but can't keep any tenant from having access to devices that supply their space.

Building management and supervision can allow for some variances on what is allowed.

Agreed.

JAP>

 

[xformer]

Not exactly what it says though.

What that section covers is occupant's access to their overcurrent devices, and not what panel can they be supplied from.

Put all tenant panels in a common area or even in single panel in common area and they all likely have access and this part of code is satisified. If it is not desired for others to have access to other tenants devices then you have to watch which overcurrent devices go where or how access may be gained, but can't keep any tenant from having access to devices that supply their space.

Building management and supervision can allow for some variances on what is allowed.

True.... But the OP did ask for a code reference for such. IMHO, I remember that OCPD that feed common areas have to be accessible to those who have access to the common area, but couldn't find a code to such.

 

[kwired]

True.... But the OP did ask for a code reference for such. IMHO, I remember that OCPD that feed common areas have to be accessible to those who have access to the common area, but couldn't find a code to such.

I look at it this way - common area is another tenant in a way. That don't mean all common area overcurrent devices need to be accessible to anyone, but can't be in place that is only accessible to another "tenant".

A managers office or general mechanical area that other tenants don't have general access to might still be considered the same "tenant space" as the "common area".

Apartment complex where a "super" lives in one apartment may not be considered for this one apartment to be part of the common area, unless designed and managed so that a change of the "super" means the new "super" moves into that same apartment, that sort of effectively becomes the managers office. But a situation of "super" lives in apartment 3, then gets fired, moves out, etc. and the owner decides to make the tenant in apartment 6 the new super, but remains living in apt 6, that isn't a situation of any particular unit always being the managers office and being able to supply house loads from within that space.

 

[ivsenroute]

One thing to keep in mind that is somewhat relevant to this thread is that only 7 of the 50 states haven't adopted an energy code. The energy code requires that all dwelling units be separately metered.
There are a lot of requirements for electrical under the energy code in the 43 states it is adopted and may be worth a look since your installations have to meet both the NEC and energy.