I am a journeyman turned contractor/estimator. As a journeyman I spent half my time making lists, and of course they were detailed. As I became an estimator that practice has served me well. Now, however as I create assemblies I fear I am too much thinking like a journeyman and include hardware to the nenth degree. Causing me to create many variations of assemblies to suite different construction types. My question is this: Do you include anchors, bolts, washers, lockwashers etc..., or do you just include a strap or minnie and call it done? I'm afraid I am getting to hung up on them, and the labor adds up.
How About Some Feedback?
- Thread starter DHkorn
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mdshunk
Senior Member
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- Right here.
I absolutely do, but I use a generic cost number for that hardware that seems to suit many mounting situations. Don't give away free hardware! It amounts to many thousands of dollars per year, I have found. Ground screws, pigtails, tek screws.. the whole shebang. Also, some of the permutations of the assemblies are so close in price, even though the assembly has a dramatically different purpose, that it's not worth keeping that assembly cost as a seperate one.DHkorn said:
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It was a late stage in a job at the second most famous high school in the country. The foreman, at whatever he was paid, spent three hours walking around counting the exact number of st,k-0pppppppp [steel]connectors that would be needed to complete the project.
Sometimes I have to spend 30 minutes finding a simple part such as a GFCI receptacle nd 10 minutes to install it. At a certain point, parts become a commodity.
Theoretically, you would tovide one suppost per 10' but, in the field, the mechanic may add an extra support or even an extra trapeze in order to keep a bank of conduits in line. This will certaonly screw up your careful calculations if you make them too precise. Perhaps, you could set a limit of say anything under 1", just supply the installers with all they need. For legitimate sizes 1 1/2" and larger, you can get more detailed.
~Peter [and the Cat]
For the small stuff, your betcourse is to add a miscelaneous category to your bid.
Sometimes I have to spend 30 minutes finding a simple part such as a GFCI receptacle nd 10 minutes to install it. At a certain point, parts become a commodity.
Theoretically, you would tovide one suppost per 10' but, in the field, the mechanic may add an extra support or even an extra trapeze in order to keep a bank of conduits in line. This will certaonly screw up your careful calculations if you make them too precise. Perhaps, you could set a limit of say anything under 1", just supply the installers with all they need. For legitimate sizes 1 1/2" and larger, you can get more detailed.
~Peter [and the Cat]
For the small stuff, your betcourse is to add a miscelaneous category to your bid.
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ramsy
NoFixNoPay Electric
- Location
- LA basin, CA
- Occupation
- Service Electrician 2020 NEC
So far that remains STD operating procedure for every commercial job I've worked on. People dissapear with boxes of hardware on lifts, carts, and in pouches. So, the next person searching the gang boxes will rumage for several minutes, before looking for people to share their stash, before calling the material handler, or putting in another order.peter said:
Hunting down material always consumed 50% of my labor, until I learned to hord boxes like the pro's. When the job is over, all the hidding places for incomplete boxes of material miraculously show up, and are utimately discarded in droves.
This issue is compounded when stainless or PVC coated hardware was required in certain areas. Since, waisting time searching for material makes people nurvous, galvanized gets used instead. The final puch list requires working backwards to remove & replace all the wrong parts, and with the durations and personell turnover on large NECA jobs everybody will tell you the joker who screwed that up is long gone.
hardworkingstiff
Senior Member
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- Wilmington, NC
Although I've argued against this point in the past, I've heard (and now agree) that estimating is as much an art as a science.
If you had robots installing from your assemblys, then the time spent on the details would be worth it. I think you are on the right track in questioning the amount of time/detail you put into each assembly. The correct place to "draw the line in the sand" on this issue will be determined by you, your project manager, and your boss. A discussion with them is probably in order.
If you had robots installing from your assemblys, then the time spent on the details would be worth it. I think you are on the right track in questioning the amount of time/detail you put into each assembly. The correct place to "draw the line in the sand" on this issue will be determined by you, your project manager, and your boss. A discussion with them is probably in order.
I included most of the harware in my assemblies. For example: a flush mounted duplex would have the following-
1. 4sq box, cadi holder, plaster ring, 2 tex screws, ground pigtail, duplex, ss cover, 3 wire nuts.
I do not build diffrent assemblies with diffrent cady holders, I just use that assembley to cover 90% of my take off's.
I do the same thing with light fixture assemblies, I have one labled 2X4 lay in that I use for just about anything in a 2X4 ceiling.
I just got done building assemblies for a major retailer that we have been doing work for, it was for a duplex mounted on unistrut that runs across the main isles. In it I included all the treaded rod, lock washers, washers, beam clamps etc.... I used to think the same thing you are thinking, what if I included to much I will not get the job. I guess I would rather not get the job then leave to much on the table and end up losing money.
1. 4sq box, cadi holder, plaster ring, 2 tex screws, ground pigtail, duplex, ss cover, 3 wire nuts.
I do not build diffrent assemblies with diffrent cady holders, I just use that assembley to cover 90% of my take off's.
I do the same thing with light fixture assemblies, I have one labled 2X4 lay in that I use for just about anything in a 2X4 ceiling.
I just got done building assemblies for a major retailer that we have been doing work for, it was for a duplex mounted on unistrut that runs across the main isles. In it I included all the treaded rod, lock washers, washers, beam clamps etc.... I used to think the same thing you are thinking, what if I included to much I will not get the job. I guess I would rather not get the job then leave to much on the table and end up losing money.
mdshunk
Senior Member
- Location
- Right here.
I think it is important to distinguish accurate assemblies for purposes of calculating a bid, and assemblies for purposes of actually ordering material. For calculating your bid, I feel it is important to be accurate.
hardworkingstiff
Senior Member
- Location
- Wilmington, NC
chrsb said:
Agreed.
What about just adding a line for hardware for the estimate and then if/when you get the job, figure out the nenth degree then? Surely an estimator can get within 10% of what the hardware will cost with a SWAG. If that little bit of possible inaccuracey (during the estimate) is intorelable, well, ..... maybe you need different work.
charlie tuna
Senior Member
- Location
- Florida
i too believe estimating is a science! how many estimators are there that never worked in the field--plenty-- and some say they are the better estimators. you only create an assembly once, i think the more accurate you are is important -- but just as important is to have a minimum number of assemblies. try to create your assemblies to cover broad spectrum of situations. once you feel comfortable with "your" system that your price is correct you have it complete. for many years i "unit priced" office interiors and was very competitive. and unit pricing really deals with an "average cost" or not totally detailed, but it works!!!
Thats basicly what I do, I have "blanket" assemblies that cover many different scenarios. I do leave out a lot of things in my bids like- termination labor, cut labor (holes, ko's etc) and have found my happy medium. When I first started estimating I included everything and was losing bids, what I found is in my program (Vision Pro) there are a lot of labor units that are off by a lot. A few that I can remember are threaded rod, jack chain, heads for track lighting etc... Once I tweaked the program and updated the database to my pricing and material brands that my wholesale house carries I have been hitting the bids withen 10% of everybody else.
I have learned my lesson on chasing bids (well not really) but am more inclined to turn work down if I know that my bid is good. I have learned that there is someone out there that will do a job for less than me, or they missed more on the prints than I did and they will get the jobs. We work for a GC that knows we will complete the job on time and on budget and is ok not going with the lowest bidder.
I have learned my lesson on chasing bids (well not really) but am more inclined to turn work down if I know that my bid is good. I have learned that there is someone out there that will do a job for less than me, or they missed more on the prints than I did and they will get the jobs. We work for a GC that knows we will complete the job on time and on budget and is ok not going with the lowest bidder.
FrancisDoody
Senior Member
- Location
- Durham, CT
Con Est Software
Con Est Software
I have been using Intelli-Bid software for over a year now and have had good results with the program. Like any software you must adjust it to your business.
The assemblies come ready made and they are very precise. Overall I believe you would be very competitive using these assemblies.
The labor unit's are another point that requires careful review. Without carefully examining labor units you could fine yourself missing every bid.
Con Est software has been the best purchase we have made in many years.
Con Est Software
I have been using Intelli-Bid software for over a year now and have had good results with the program. Like any software you must adjust it to your business.
The assemblies come ready made and they are very precise. Overall I believe you would be very competitive using these assemblies.
The labor unit's are another point that requires careful review. Without carefully examining labor units you could fine yourself missing every bid.
Con Est software has been the best purchase we have made in many years.
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memyselfandI
Senior Member
- Location
- Hampton Roads, Virginia
I have always tried to remember that an estimate is just that, an estimate. I include as much material that is required to do the job, as well as labor for doing the estimate and performing the task at hand. The one thing that I have learned is to be very inclusive as to what I am providing (i.e.- number of devices, fixtures, etc.). This helps me when the customer comes up to me and asks "can I get a receptacle here too?". Anchors, nuts, bolts, straps, wirenuts, tape, lube, etc. are all part of doing the job and should never be given away, especially when the quantities of these items start to mount. They add up after a while.
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