peter d
Senior Member
- Location
- New England
I do remember all of those fiascos, the fake plug mold being the worst. I don't think I've ever installed an electrical product that awful since. :happyno:
How do you answer "just give me a price for labor, I'll buy all the materiel"?
- Thread starter GerryB
- Start date
- Status
I do remember all of those fiascos, the fake plug mold being the worst. I don't think I've ever installed an electrical product that awful since. :happyno:
jaylectricity
Senior Member
- Location
- Massachusetts
- Occupation
- licensed journeyman electrician
I did some work for a friend a couple weekends ago. He had all kinds of stuff for me to use. Some UF from the 80's, metal boxes that still had old romex in the clamps, stuff like that.
After I finished I told him that the money he saved using that stuff he had laying around he probably paid me more to to painstakingly strip the UF inch by inch and take apart the boxes to make them usable.
I think he learned his lesson, but I think he was OK with it because at least he was giving the money to me and not the store.
After I finished I told him that the money he saved using that stuff he had laying around he probably paid me more to to painstakingly strip the UF inch by inch and take apart the boxes to make them usable.
I think he learned his lesson, but I think he was OK with it because at least he was giving the money to me and not the store.
keith gigabyte
Senior Member
- Location
- New Kensington, Pa
Unless its a good friend or family member I just say no. I do work with some real estate investors; I have them buy the fixtures and ceiling fans; as meeting with them to pick them out could be an all day affair.
Other than that If a customer wants to supply material i say NO. If they keep trying I tell em to find some one else.
Other than that If a customer wants to supply material i say NO. If they keep trying I tell em to find some one else.
Fulthrotl
~Autocorrect is My Worst Enema.~
- Occupation
- E
the lighting package being supplied by the customer, in the event
of national retail chains, is becoming the norm here, largely due
to the cost, and the title 24, part 6 compliance issues. you get exactly
what is specified on the drawings, and not a wirenut more, thank you.
the problem occurs when they ship the exact build out, with no spares,
and you have a defective part. more common than you might expect.
and you can't easily get spares locally. not on the shelf is the new model.
lutron grafik eye systems are sent out, and if you have a bad widget, you
wait for a new one, and no final inspection until it's done. friend of mine
has a daylight sensor that was defective. job sat for three weeks. the factory
was waiting for a new batch from china.
temporary certificate of occupancy issuances are way up, and there is usually
a pretty healthy city fee for them to be issued. it's becoming common for them
to be used.
'lectricianeering is changing.
of national retail chains, is becoming the norm here, largely due
to the cost, and the title 24, part 6 compliance issues. you get exactly
what is specified on the drawings, and not a wirenut more, thank you.
the problem occurs when they ship the exact build out, with no spares,
and you have a defective part. more common than you might expect.
and you can't easily get spares locally. not on the shelf is the new model.
lutron grafik eye systems are sent out, and if you have a bad widget, you
wait for a new one, and no final inspection until it's done. friend of mine
has a daylight sensor that was defective. job sat for three weeks. the factory
was waiting for a new batch from china.
temporary certificate of occupancy issuances are way up, and there is usually
a pretty healthy city fee for them to be issued. it's becoming common for them
to be used.
'lectricianeering is changing.
fisherelectric
Senior Member
- Location
- Northern Va
Had a customer the other day who wanted to supply all the finish material for a remodel job...... recessed fixtures, the switches and receptacles, bath fans, dimmers, and plates, while I supplied the wire and boxes. She was a nice little old lady so I did it that way. I swear I could have bought the fixtures and devices and marked them up and still sold them to her for less than what she paid. In any event it was nice on the final when my guys sent her out to the supply house three times to get what she had forgotten or got wrong. Kind of like having our own personal delivery service.
Had a neighbor once, who upon finding out I did for a living, asked me about wiring his shop. Told him no upfront and that if he needed some work done to call our company (my employer is insured and call pull permits, I am not individually and cannot individually per ahj law). Guy proceeds to tell me "But your an electrician" in that whiny petulant tone so many of us had heard when declining non permitted work. He goes "but I've already got the materials" and still no dice. He then rambles on about how expensive electricians are, telling me at once point that "we all over bill on material" and that "everybody knows electricians get discounts and get materials cheaper than anyone else". Realizing that his attempts at "hiring" me were futile, he becomes slightly belligerent ( I didn't care if the childish cheapskate had a problem w/ what I said or not) but resigned. Never did really associate with that guy after that. Of course he didn't call us, ended up wiring his own shop (it looked predictably amateurish btw ), and eventually moved.
mjf
Senior Member
I guess it depends on how busy you are, how much "headache" you're willing to endure, etc.
Price it as if you're buying the materials and see if you get the job
jaylectricity
Senior Member
- Location
- Massachusetts
- Occupation
- licensed journeyman electrician
So #1, he wants to hire you because as an electrician you get discounts and cheap materials, even though he already has all the materials.
#2 You should have said, "Yes, electricians are expensive, why would you think I'm any different?"
GerryB
Senior Member
- Location
- woodbridge, ct. USA
Actually pulled out of it today. To much going on. It was a low income deal where you had to keep payroll if you have employees. Has to be done by Nov 1st or there are penalties. Submit invoices and get paid in 30 days. They are still waiting for architect drawings by Jul 31st. It is demoed but no power yet. It is basic, but still it is a larger two family, has a third floor. They are doing central air, some hardwood flooring, etc. Seems like a lot by Nov 1.I guess it depends on how busy you are, how much "headache" you're willing to endure, etc.
Price it as if you're buying the materials and see if you get the job
Your missing the scam: He never had the materials> Heres how it goes with these types- They believe that by dangling this carrot (the materials) in front of you that you will be more willing to do the job because they think that you think that having all the supplies ready somehow makes the job less trouble. The complaints regarding expense and mark ups that often come next is meant to evoke sympathy (afterall, you are an electrician-can't you just help the poor guy out?) but if you look closely enough you can see the bitterness and frustration because some ec quoted them appropriately or didn't put up with their line of crap. When you ask to see the materials right away they are never there- materials are always at the brothers house or some other nonsense and these jobs never start right away- its always next week sometime. The mention of material discounts is done in an attempt to pick you to see if you do recieve alleged discounts and if you cop out to them and you are stupid enough to take the job, they sneak off and buy things they think you will need, but curiously forget to purchase certain big ticket items they KNOW you will need (most of these dirtbags are manipulative and have been to more than one rodeo). Incomplete material inventory shows up on the job site (obviously) before you do and when you cannot finish or even start the job due to missing costly items, they believe that they can then save $$$ by getting you to use your discount. And when it comes to time to pay the bill and assuming you did use your discount they will argue that they don't owe you as much because supplies didn't cost as much and mark up shouldn't apply to them. And if you didn't use your discount or told them you couldn't, therefore causing them to pay full price for everything, they will argue that what you could have earned was ate up by cost of materials and that well, you should have used your discounts if you wanted more $$$. These slimeballs usually prey on the tethered (licensed employees of contractors) because they know they have the expertise to do what they want and they can screw them- you take them to court and you would then admit to doing work w/o permit
. Be wary and steer clear of this crap.
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jaylectricity
Senior Member
- Location
- Massachusetts
- Occupation
- licensed journeyman electrician
I'm not missing the scam at all. But thanks for laying it all out.
jaylectricity
Senior Member
- Location
- Massachusetts
- Occupation
- licensed journeyman electrician
I hate when I don't notice my new post will be the first post at the top of a new page. I was replying to this:
Your missing the scam: He never had the materials> Heres how it goes with these types- They believe that by dangling this carrot (the materials) in front of you that you will be more willing to do the job because they think that you think that having all the supplies ready somehow makes the job less trouble. The complaints regarding expense and mark ups that often come next is meant to evoke sympathy (afterall, you are an electrician-can't you just help the poor guy out?) but if you look closely enough you can see the bitterness and frustration because some ec quoted them appropriately or didn't put up with their line of crap. When you ask to see the materials right away they are never there- materials are always at the brothers house or some other nonsense and these jobs never start right away- its always next week sometime. The mention of material discounts is done in an attempt to pick you to see if you do recieve alleged discounts and if you cop out to them and you are stupid enough to take the job, they sneak off and buy things they think you will need, but curiously forget to purchase certain big ticket items they KNOW you will need (most of these dirtbags are manipulative and have been to more than one rodeo). Incomplete material inventory shows up on the job site (obviously) before you do and when you cannot finish or even start the job due to missing costly items, they believe that they can then save $$$ by getting you to use your discount. And when it comes to time to pay the bill and assuming you did use your discount they will argue that they don't owe you as much because supplies didn't cost as much and mark up shouldn't apply to them. And if you didn't use your discount or told them you couldn't, therefore causing them to pay full price for everything, they will argue that what you could have earned was ate up by cost of materials and that well, you should have used your discounts if you wanted more $$$. These slimeballs usually prey on the tethered (licensed employees of contractors) because they know they have the expertise to do what they want and they can screw them- you take them to court and you would then admit to doing work w/o permit
Fulthrotl
~Autocorrect is My Worst Enema.~
- Occupation
- E
Your missing the scam: He never had the materials> Heres how it goes with these types- They believe that by dangling this carrot (the materials) in front of you that you will be more willing to do the job because they think that you think that having all the supplies ready somehow makes the job less trouble. The complaints regarding expense and mark ups that often come next is meant to evoke sympathy (afterall, you are an electrician-can't you just help the poor guy out?) but if you look closely enough you can see the bitterness and frustration because some ec quoted them appropriately or didn't put up with their line of crap. When you ask to see the materials right away they are never there- materials are always at the brothers house or some other nonsense and these jobs never start right away- its always next week sometime. The mention of material discounts is done in an attempt to pick you to see if you do recieve alleged discounts and if you cop out to them and you are stupid enough to take the job, they sneak off and buy things they think you will need, but curiously forget to purchase certain big ticket items they KNOW you will need (most of these dirtbags are manipulative and have been to more than one rodeo). Incomplete material inventory shows up on the job site (obviously) before you do and when you cannot finish or even start the job due to missing costly items, they believe that they can then save $$$ by getting you to use your discount. And when it comes to time to pay the bill and assuming you did use your discount they will argue that they don't owe you as much because supplies didn't cost as much and mark up shouldn't apply to them. And if you didn't use your discount or told them you couldn't, therefore causing them to pay full price for everything, they will argue that what you could have earned was ate up by cost of materials and that well, you should have used your discounts if you wanted more $$$. These slimeballs usually prey on the tethered (licensed employees of contractors) because they know they have the expertise to do what they want and they can screw them- you take them to court and you would then admit to doing work w/o permit
i think you are being generous in your assessment of how much thought
someone puts into trying to save money. most folks simply see that if they
buy the material, they can save a few hundred bucks.
most of the time, this is small odds and ends someone wants done, and figures
they can save $400. that used to be a magic tip over number in a lot of sales
pitches... show them how they can save four or five hundred dollars, or earn
four or five hundred dollars, and a lot of people are all over that.
everyone has hot buttons on how to save money. most of the time they cost
more than they save. we do it individually, and we do it collectively. and when
corporate decisions are made in this fashion, results can be astounding.
i've seen multi million dollar projects doomed to never showing a profit, due
to someone convincing someone else at the early planning stages that $100k
could be saved on this or that.
$400 lost is a tragedy, and $5 million lost is just the way things go....
kwired
Electron manager
- Location
- NE Nebraska
- Occupation
- EC
Consumers are led to believe they are saving money all the time even if they aren't. Take the automobile, appliances, furniture sales markets and some others pop up here and there and their allegedly huge sales events. How can they knock off 50% or more on a price and still profit? Well sometimes they are just getting rid of something that is taking up space and is not making profit but other times they just have so much markup that they still can profit with those deals - just not as much, but the increase in sales is still more profit then if nothing is moving.
This just happens to be a sales method not common to building construction trades, but those trades are not selling an item where you typically come in, select what you want and walk out the same day with your purchase either, they are selling something they have already factored a profit margin into and to be competitive probably can not afford to knock much margin off the price without changing the specifications or overall quality of finished product.
I realize that what I posted may seem to give too much credit to those who are trying to save some cash, but I have learned that many "potential customers" are experienced schemers who will go out of their way to try get something done for almost nothing and are interested solely in trying to use you and beat you out of what you are entitled to. The funny thing is is that alot of the people that try to scam you the most are those that can easily afford to hire an ec. I agree that many times folks aren't that evil and only want to save a few hundred, but I have also learned that many people who seek out our services show an uncanny ability to play head games and you really reach the point where nothing surprises you.
kwired
Electron manager
- Location
- NE Nebraska
- Occupation
- EC
I agree there are a lot who do this. There are also many that are willing to pay more but will take whatever break they can get - don't fall for their bluff. Be firm with what you are willing to offer and if they don't like it you probably don't really want to work for them anyway.
Negotiation exists in all types of businesses. If you ever watch TV shows like "Extreme Cheapskates" you will see some negotiations that just blow your mind, others maybe not bad concepts driving them but they do push the limits on what is considered normal.
- Location
- Simi Valley, CA
Pretty much what I was thinking.:happyyes:
Fulthrotl
~Autocorrect is My Worst Enema.~
- Occupation
- E
it's pretty funny..... yeah, sure, after pushing 40 years doing this, i want to
go to work for someone who doesn't know what they are doing, doesn't know
how to do it, doesn't know how long it will take, or how much it will cost.
sounds a lot like some employers i've already worked for. i didn't like it much then, either.
the difference was they were PROFESSIONAL idiots.
doing it for a customer would be doing it for an AMATEUR idiot. in that situation, *I* would
be the professional idiot.:dunce:
- Status