How is this UL rated? Seems impossible.

[mbrooke]

In what way is a fire a great way of finding any problems lol. I think on a dedicated 15Amp it is fine. 20 would be better of course. The issue I take with the manual is it does not state that it must be a dedicated branch. Put a few more amps on there and even at inrush it will trip or worse.

I had my home built. At first, unknown to me they backstabbed everything. I sued the builder and lost. Since backstab is allowable but I was furious. I had to redo every one. To me, even that is allowed it is a mark of shoddy workmanship and a rush job. I know this is off topic for my post but as i said a fire is not a nice way to find out.

A funny story, this guy was so lazy he worked for 18 years put runners on a 3 way on the line. I just do not like to be the person that gets those surprises! That goes all the way up to arc flash from no lock out. Not cool at all in my book to cut corners.

Anyways it is no problem. I already ran a 20 amp branch to it. The cord is 14AWG for whatever that is worth. Obviously it is, having a 15Amp plug. As I thought and others pondered i put the clamp on it and it settles down to between 5 and 7 Amps. The 14.93 is for a second. That is fine for non continuous usage. I guess I just wish manuals were more concise. Like state 14.93A Max. Hence the Max. Apparently the NEC and appliance manufactures are two different entities Actual Sparkies tend to speak of things differently.

I agree backstabs aren't the best, but why is a 20amp circuit better over a dedicated 15?

 

[hbiss]

I agree backstabs aren't the best, but why is a 20amp circuit better over a dedicated 15?

I know we might not be talking continuous loads but 80% of 15 is 12 amps or 1440 watts. For another few pennies a 20 will give you 16. So in the event that you have a continuous load you are covered up to 1920 watts and it can have a 20A plug.

-Hal

 

[mbrooke]

I know we might not be talking continuous loads but 80% of 15 is 12 amps or 1440 watts. For another few pennies a 20 will give you 16. So in the event that you have a continuous load you are covered up to 1920 watts and it can have a 20A plug.

-Hal

But what in resi comes with a 20amp plug? The way I see it unless voltage drop is a concern or code requires it #12 is a waste.

 

[hbiss]

But what in resi comes with a 20amp plug?

Nothing resi that I can think of except maybe A/Cs.

I have a 1800 watt commercial toaster oven and an 1800 watt panini press. Both have a NEMA 5-15 plug.

But you can see where this kind of commercial equipment could find its way into resi kitchens if someone is looking to get away from the consumer junk. I haven't looked so I can't say if there is any commercial equipment that is 120V with a 20A plug. But a dedicated circuit is easy enough to change to 220 if the need arises.

-Hal

 

[rong111]

We were commercial contractors. Sometimes we would do homes so large they had commercial service. These are homes where the family does not go in the kitchen. They have a kitchen "staff". it would not be uncommon to find 60Amp service on one receptacle. You have all seen those connectors I imagine. This is not ordinary of course. Maybe people upgrade their kitchen. For working people it was very interesting to just be in there. Everything was already roughed in always so I had an idea the scope of what these homes were. I mean up to 150,000 Square Feet! In fact those kind of homes are required to have commercial service per local codes. They have their own transformer on the property. So it is possible but not common. The largest receptacle in a regular home is 20A except for maybe a dryer,water heater,stove Etc. Those might only be 30A. Of course you cannot just go put those on the wall in a regular home.

It is funny how much stupid stuff public housing mandates yet what they miss. In some areas they want above and beyond the AHJ. Just on the flip side of the mansions.

In my career I saw anything and everything. Good and bad. Now I have to be honest I had trouble running 10 feet of EMT. I am by no means a young man anymore which is why I had retired 8 years ago. At least I can enjoy some cake now!

I just put 20 because current code requires 20 on the wall in kitchens and bathrooms. Plus I figured the 12AWG conductors would not heat up even if this thing mainly draws less than 7 amps. You guys were correct that is cycles the power. Plus it is not going to run very long. For some reason I just prefer 12AWG even when 14 can be used on 15A. I probably could have made more money in office buildings ETC but I just feel better about it. There is no technical reason just my personal feeling.

 

[kwired]

We were commercial contractors. Sometimes we would do homes so large they had commercial service. These are homes where the family does not go in the kitchen. They have a kitchen "staff". it would not be uncommon to find 60Amp service on one receptacle. You have all seen those connectors I imagine. This is not ordinary of course. Maybe people upgrade their kitchen. For working people it was very interesting to just be in there. Everything was already roughed in always so I had an idea the scope of what these homes were. I mean up to 150,000 Square Feet! In fact those kind of homes are required to have commercial service per local codes. They have their own transformer on the property. So it is possible but not common. The largest receptacle in a regular home is 20A except for maybe a dryer,water heater,stove Etc. Those might only be 30A. Of course you cannot just go put those on the wall in a regular home.

It is funny how much stupid stuff public housing mandates yet what they miss. In some areas they want above and beyond the AHJ. Just on the flip side of the mansions.

In my career I saw anything and everything. Good and bad. Now I have to be honest I had trouble running 10 feet of EMT. I am by no means a young man anymore which is why I had retired 8 years ago. At least I can enjoy some cake now!

I just put 20 because current code requires 20 on the wall in kitchens and bathrooms. Plus I figured the 12AWG conductors would not heat up even if this thing mainly draws less than 7 amps. You guys were correct that is cycles the power. Plus it is not going to run very long. For some reason I just prefer 12AWG even when 14 can be used on 15A. I probably could have made more money in office buildings ETC but I just feel better about it. There is no technical reason just my personal feeling.

What is a "commercial service"? NEC has no such distinction. POCO may have different rate schedules, which is mostly based on expected usage details, none of that changes NEC requirements. A home fed by it's own transformer is not uncommon at all here, just depends on location and proximity to other homes in many instances. City/village "lots" the houses are close enough to one another there is normally common transformers for more then one home. Get on the outskirts of these towns where people have "acreages" or at least a pretty large property and individual transformer to each is pretty common.

20 amp circuits are required for SABC's and bath receptacles, 20 amp receptacles are only required if the circuit contains only one single receptacle outlet, a duplex counts as two receptacles and can be 15 amp type receptacle.

I often run 12 AWG to receptacle outlets but other then the required 20 amp circuits, is completely a design decision.

 

[rong111]

I am on large acreage as well I meant homes that draw thousands of amps. The POCO does have different rates. I know the NEC has no designation. I just meant not what you see in a "normal" residence. IE, more than 400 Amp service.

 

[kwired]

I am on large acreage as well I meant homes that draw thousands of amps. The POCO does have different rates. I know the NEC has no designation. I just meant not what you see in a "normal" residence. IE, more than 400 Amp service.

I never been to a big mansion that has full time staff around, would guess they are not exactly classified as a single family dwelling.

I can also see fire walls being required that effectively make separate buildings out of some spaces.

A large party room is likely treated just like it were a convention hall, place of assembly rules likely apply to this space within the mansion. Next to it, maybe some guest rooms - some maybe even with their own little kitchens, making each one a dwelling unit.

Seems like it would be classified similar to hotels and resorts in many ways.

 

[mbrooke]

Of course you cannot just go put those on the wall in a regular home.

You can, nothing stops you to my knowledge.

 

[rong111]

This is strange but come to think of it I think you are correct. Nothing stops you. Maybe local codes govern that. I don't know. Nonetheless NEMA60A on the wall in a average kitchen would seem strange to me indeed. The connectors are huge.

Yes, I think homes that size may not be zoned as regular residential. So, probably a whole different set of rules applies. Our jobs were to code but that is not what you would see in a "normal" home

I just put the 20A in my kitchen because it is current code. That oven could have run on 15A. The thing was the manual did not say dedicated. 15A would have to be dedicated. At the least it would just trip if there was another load.

 

[kwired]

This is strange but come to think of it I think you are correct. Nothing stops you. Maybe local codes govern that. I don't know. Nonetheless NEMA60A on the wall in a average kitchen would seem strange to me indeed. The connectors are huge.

Yes, I think homes that size may not be zoned as regular residential. So, probably a whole different set of rules applies. Our jobs were to code but that is not what you would see in a "normal" home

I just put the 20A in my kitchen because it is current code. That oven could have run on 15A. The thing was the manual did not say dedicated. 15A would have to be dedicated. At the least it would just trip if there was another load.

Your oven IIRC has a 5-15 cord cap factory installed on the unit, so it needs to plug into a 5-15 or 5-20 receptacle, either of which can be on the 20A SABC, as long as it is not a circuit that only supplies one single receptacle outlet, then it would have to be a 20 amp receptacle, but nothing prohibits plugging in the 15 amp cord cap.

Had this been a fastened in place oven that needs or has hard wired option, that 15 amp or less oven could possibly be on a multi outlet circuit of up to 50 amps. See 210.23(C), unless any instructions mentioned otherwise.

Would not be illegal to put a 60 amp or higher receptacle in a dwelling, just is pretty rare to ever see anything that would need such a thing in a dwelling. When you do run 60 amp or higher branch circuits in a dwelling they typically are direct wired appliances instead of cord and plug connected as well.

 

[rong111]

Completely agree. You are correct. I was just saying in some of those homes with a "commercial" kitchen, they would have Nema60 "receptacles" for a Fry boiler Etc. It is rare. In a regular home 50A or more would probably be hard wired A/C or something. I just meant you do not see receptacles that size in a "normal" home. Pretty much what you said I think. 60A or over that has a "plug" is generally not found in residences. It is often found in commercial installations. I had a contract with a Pizza chain and there are several of those in their establishments. Powering things that would not usually be in a residential kitchen. For one thing most homes do not have a 3,000 square foot kitchen. I was just talking about a few mansions we had done along the way. The "family" does not usually go in the kitchen in those scenarios. I was just mentioning it, that's all. As for the topic at hand I took care of it a few days ago. I just found the manual odd.