• We will be performing upgrades on the forums and server over the weekend. The forums may be unavailable multiple times for up to an hour each. Thank you for your patience and understanding as we work to make the forums even better.

How many drops

Status
Not open for further replies.

Ponchik

Senior Member
Location
CA
Occupation
Electronologist
I have a residential project that client has 11 locations that need CAT-6 or Coax or both. I recommended two of each (2 cat-6 & 2 coax) for each location. Now I am wondering if it is WAY over kill.

I don't do much network cabling so what do you guys think? Is two of each per location over kill?

Thanks for your input.
 

mgookin

Senior Member
Location
Fort Myers, FL
Occupation
Retired inspector, plans examiner & building official
I'd ask the client. Let them call the shot so it's not on you if it's not what they want.
 

cpinetree

Senior Member
Location
SW Florida
I have a residential project that client has 11 locations that need CAT-6 or Coax or both. I recommended two of each (2 cat-6 & 2 coax) for each location. Now I am wondering if it is WAY over kill.

I don't do much network cabling so what do you guys think? Is two of each per location over kill?

Thanks for your input.

If you don't have a way to add or change later (read conduit or string) then run the two of each now. Wire is too inexpensive compare to the labor to change it later.

In our experience unless they plan on piping the video / network back to a central point for redistribution you probably would be fine with one of each (coax + cat6) at most locations and run 2 of each to the main usage / main distribution point.
 

JohnE

Senior Member
Location
Milford, MA
It's not overkill. I did single Cat5/ Coax in multiple locations in my house when I built it 4 years ago and wish I had done two Cat 5's. I'm using switches now in a few places where I wouldn't have needed them if I did the double Cat 5's. It is easy enough for me to add them, but still easier to use the switches.

However, if budget is a concern, the customer may be paying for a lot of wiring he can do without and be better served spending it on other aspects of the job.
 
If you don't have a way to add or change later (read conduit or string) then run the two of each now. Wire is too inexpensive compare to the labor to change it later.

Even if it is easy to add later, that's probably not going to happen (get someone out, with the cable & jacks, find the endpoints, etc etc). For a residence, the incremental cost of pulling the extra cable, even if it's not terminated, is close to zero. And if you do terminate everything, that probably only adds an hour or two to the job. Sure, that's money, but only a small bit over the cost of not doing it. (BTW, I'm not saying to do it for free, add it to the job's price.)

This is kind of like the discussion of "Should I install a duplex or a quad?" If it's a question at all, the answer is probably the quad :D.
 

hbiss

EC, Westchester, New York NEC: 2014
Location
Hawthorne, New York NEC: 2014
Occupation
EC
I'm going to disagree here. This isn't the old days. Most residential today is wireless for nearly everything. (I know WE think wired is better but consider what the salesperson at Best Buy is going to sell the customer.) Everybody has a cell phone and residential land lines have become almost obsolete. Even when there is a landline, most customers opt for a cordless phone system with one base station. Coax is going to be phased out by cable companies and will be replaced by video over IP so there's wireless too. Think Netflix, Hula and the others via WiFi to the TVs.

When you run cables, you also have to consider that every location isn't going to need everything so don't go crazy. I would talk to the homeowner about his or her expectations. See what their thoughts are regarding landline phones, cable TV and computers and where they want them and go from there.

I agree that it's easy to run cables now but in most instances you would only be throwing money away and wasting your time.

-Hal
 
Last edited:

SceneryDriver

Senior Member
Location
NJ
Occupation
Electrical and Automation Designer
I'm going to disagree here. This isn't the old days. Most residential today is wireless for nearly everything. (I know WE think wired is better but consider what the salesperson at Best Buy is going to sell the customer.) Everybody has a cell phone and residential land lines have become almost obsolete. Even when there is a landline, most customers opt for a cordless phone system with one base station. Coax is going to be phased out by cable companies and will be replaced by video over IP so there's wireless too. Think Netflix, Hula and the others via WiFi to the TVs.

When you run cables, you also have to consider that every location isn't going to need everything so don't go crazy. I would talk to the homeowner about his or her expectations. See what their thoughts are regarding landline phones, cable TV and computers and where they want them and go from there.

I agree that it's easy to run cables now but in most instances you would only be throwing money away and wasting your time.

-Hal

The issue with wireless has long been speed. 802.11AC largely solves this for now, as it offers a theoretical 1Gb/sec full duplex connection, but that's rarely achieved in practice due to signal multipath, fading, and attenuation. The 5GHZ band is helpful for increased speeds, but its signal falls off rapidly when going through walls.

For the foreseeable future, copper will provide the fastest and most reliable connections. There's fiber, but there's not much (any) call for it outside of business and industry, yet. Pull CAT6a to future-proof (as much as one can). CAT6a is good to 10Gb/s with the right terminations and hardware, so you're set for a while at least.

Since the majority of labor is in the pulling of wire/conduit, I'd suggest installing 1" Smurf-tube to the j-boxes from the nearest accessible location; usually the basement or attic. Pull in only what you need, and replace it later when technology changes. The Smurf-tube allows you to replace the cables without opening up the walls. Use the largest j-boxes (with a mud ring) you can fit in the wall to allow for the increased bending radius of CATx cable, coax, and fiber.


SceneryDriver
 

JohnE

Senior Member
Location
Milford, MA
I don't disagree with Hal - I probably have more use for wired network connections than average. With that said, you may want to wire for a few strategic WAP's. I just upgraded to those (from a few individually placed wireless routers) and it's been a great improvement.
 

Jon1980

Inactive, Email Never Verified
Location
Texas
One coax at a single location would be sufficient. It's only used for tv's. There was a time when it was used for data (tolken ring systems) but this was back in the 90's. I always installed two catx cables one blue and one white. If installed with rj45 wall Jack's. And terminated at the same location. The white could be eather or. Since standard phones work off the center two pairs (rj25?)

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G530A using Tapatalk
 

JFletcher

Senior Member
Location
Williamsburg, VA
Good luck getting 44 cables into one of those garbage On-Q enclosures. I agree with Hal; if it's a custom build, talk with the HO. and Cat6a is overkill for anything short of hard-wired massive data transfer from point to point inside the home. If they want hard wired internet and telephone at the same location, two cat5e/cat6 cables are better than trying to split out pairs of one cable on both ends (which is a giant pita with more than a few drops, and leaves you with a 100MBs system, max; you need all 4 pairs for gigabit+ internet).

Single line POTS will work on any pair, but convention dictates the blue pair be line 1. USOC keystones (for telephone) and catx keystones (for data) are not the same.

At least you are putting some thought into this. We added a few phone drops a few weeks ago to a 1.4M$ (a LOT of money here) mansion that had one (yes, one) phone drop for its original wiring. and the original builder used CMP cable, with 8p8c keystones, and an On-Q panel. :slaphead::slaphead:

If you want to future proof, run conduit as much as you can. Stub up from 2nd floor locations to the attic, down to the basement/crawlspace on the 1st floor, and run chases between those points. A centralized router will do more for the avg person than 10 hard wired drops will.
 
I would have agreed with hbiss (everything is wireless) until 2 weeks ago. We are in a test area for Google Fiber....that's fiber right to the house. From the entry point, it's CAT 5e to the Google "Network Box" (think router). Then from the Network Box (router) to EACH TV is EITHER a coax line that then splits to serve multiple TVs OR a CAT5e from the the Network Box to EACH TV. Fortunately, before finishing basement of house, we pulled a lot of coax and 5e from each room to a common point. I DO agree with hbiss that we are moving to fully wireless.
 

mgookin

Senior Member
Location
Fort Myers, FL
Occupation
Retired inspector, plans examiner & building official
Many don't like wireless. Myself included. And as to CATV I have coax for both data & tv.

Ask Hillary how she likes wireless... Ask her again in a few months if the warden will allow you to visit.

We do not do wireless and we will not do wireless. It's against company policy. It has never been secure and it never will be.

Pull those wires.
 

JFletcher

Senior Member
Location
Williamsburg, VA
Many don't like wireless. Myself included. And as to CATV I have coax for both data & tv.

Ask Hillary how she likes wireless... Ask her again in a few months if the warden will allow you to visit.

We do not do wireless and we will not do wireless. It's against company policy. It has never been secure and it never will be.

Pull those wires.

Oddly enough, even cheaply wired places like hotels usually have hardwired internet. I'd imagine the immediate reason is brand specs, i.e. "You can't be a [insert name here] hotel without this, that, and the other...", and one of those specs is hardwired internet connections. I'm sure the ultimate reason is security, because if any of the 20 or so hotels I cabled could have gotten away with 10-30 APs vs that AND hard wiring all rooms, conference center, business center, etc, they most certainly would have.

Back in 2008, we wired up a 44 room addition to a Hyatt Place, with cat6 and coax to each TV. That cat6 was left unterminated in the MDF. I went there last year; that cat6 still has my tie wraps on it, still unterminated. (didnt know then you werent supposed to use tie-wraps on catx cable).

talking with the HO (if possible) is best. and tho I've done enough commercial v/d/v installs to do them in my sleep, a house is a different animal. There are companies that specialize in those installs for a reason. The last McMansion we wired, I think the security and v/d/v guys may have pulled more wire than we did.

Most people arent in charge of national security; they have problems with wireless because they have a cheap router at the far end of a 5000 sq ft house and expect it to throw a signal through umpteen layers of drywall, insulation, doors, etc. or 20 CATV drops run thru 4 splitters to 5 TVs and nothing is capped off, and the terminations are crimped with a pair of Kleins...
 

hbiss

EC, Westchester, New York NEC: 2014
Location
Hawthorne, New York NEC: 2014
Occupation
EC
Oddly enough, even cheaply wired places like hotels usually have hardwired internet. I'd imagine the immediate reason is brand specs, i.e. "You can't be a [insert name here] hotel without this, that, and the other...", and one of those specs is hardwired internet connections. I'm sure the ultimate reason is security, because if any of the 20 or so hotels I cabled could have gotten away with 10-30 APs vs that AND hard wiring all rooms, conference center, business center, etc, they most certainly would have.

How would you plug your Smart Phone or tablet into a jack?? In the last at least 10 years I have never stayed at a hotel that didn't have WiFI and I can't imagine one in this day and age that doesn't have it. Nobody would stay there. Security is a figment of some IT geeks paranoia.

I have never seen data jacks in rooms- I have seen jacks marked DATA that were really phone lines for dialup however.

Back in 2008, we wired up a 44 room addition to a Hyatt Place, with cat6 and coax to each TV. That cat6 was left unterminated in the MDF. I went there last year; that cat6 still has my tie wraps on it, still unterminated.

Perfect example of what I'm talking about. Even eight years ago they should have known better. The laptop I'm typing this on now is about eight years old and has WiFi.

-Hal
 

JFletcher

Senior Member
Location
Williamsburg, VA
How would you plug your Smart Phone or tablet into a jack?? In the last at least 10 years I have never stayed at a hotel that didn't have WiFI and I can't imagine one in this day and age that doesn't have it. Nobody would stay there. Security is a figment of some IT geeks paranoia.

I have never seen data jacks in rooms- I have seen jacks marked DATA that were really phone lines for dialup however.



Perfect example of what I'm talking about. Even eight years ago they should have known better. The laptop I'm typing this on now is about eight years old and has WiFi.

-Hal

Every hotel I have ever wired has a data jack above the desk. and a phone line in a 2 port plate. and a phone by the bed (with a jack there too). afaik, you cannot legally rent a hotel/motel room that does not have a working telephone.

Ive been out of the commercial v/d/v for a few years, maybe hard wired internet was a short fad/craze, maybe you have only stayed at older properties that only have wireless.

The cat6 for the TVs, we've had more than one place request/require it, even when it was a complete conduit job. Go figure.

I know your love of cat6:p; I remember you from the Sundance forum.

Even tho wireless is pretty good, there are annoying and hard to solve glitches with it. For example, every time my microwave completes a cook cycle (turns off), it interrupts the signal to my Wii. That aside, every residential wireless problem I've encountered is a low power router not centrally located trying to send a signal thru literally 5000+ sq ft of house. Doesnt work. Yet some clients will pay more for hard wiring before going to BB to get a more powerful router, even when the problem is explained to them. It doesnt matter that it makes zero financial sense; people want what they want.

I know from the military staying at the hotel where I used to do maintenance that much of their official business had to be done over a hardline; no wireless allowed.

Back to the topic at hand, imo you cant guess where people will want TVs and what not. The house we are selling, the only thing not completed is the cable drops. They are run from the NID and coiled up under every room. The next HO may pop them thru the floor like the previous one did, or run them in the walls. Most people dont care and Ive lost count of the number of 30' CATV cords run around baseboards in million dollar homes to get to the wall jack, which isnt anywhere near where the TV is.

Most resi v/d/v is an afterthought. I think bldg code requires one phone line, no cable, no internet. Ive seen many a new home wired that way too.

If I had to guess, I'd put TV drops opposite where beds are going, family room, dining room, and den/office room. Phone jack wall mount in kitchen and garage; master bedroom, living room. Nobody will care or notice tho, and that's okay; that's what 50' patch cords are for, right?
 

egnlsn

Senior Member
Location
Herriman, UT
Occupation
A/V/Security Technician
Don't skimp, and don't ask the customer what they want. Most of the time they have no idea.

At a minimum, there should be 2+2 (ANSI/TIA/EIA 570C Grade 2 Standard). Alot of people subscribe to a pay TV service AND have OTA. Gotta have 2 coax cables for that. If their sound system is at another location (closet down the hall) and it has a powered subwoofer, need a coax for that.

In addition to network, there's HDBaseT for HD distribution, and cabling for an i.r. repeater. If they have satellite, they'd probably like the option of having caller ID on their TV.

I know wireless is the rave, but there are 2 downfalls with wireless: 1) Security, as was mentioned earlier; 2) The RF doesn't stop at the outside wall or the fence -- it goes over into the neighbors yards/houses as well. In my single family house, I see 5 or 6 routers, in addition to my own. Say each house has a smart TV and their AVR uses WiFi, they have a bluray disc player, a laptop, 2 tablets, and 3 smartphones. That's 9 devices times 6 = 54 devices, in addition to my own. Ninety percent of people don't change the router's channel, so that's 54 devices vying for a piece of the same channel.

I would pull in 2+2 to each location, and at the main TV location, 2 Series 6 coax + 3 CAT6 cables. In addition, install a 1" smurf from each outlet to a location that's easy for the homeowner to get to, and (2) 2" from the wiring panel (minimum 36") to that location.

Don't be the contractor that the customer cusses out because they can't do what they want to do.
 

hbiss

EC, Westchester, New York NEC: 2014
Location
Hawthorne, New York NEC: 2014
Occupation
EC
... don't ask the customer what they want. Most of the time they have no idea... Don't be the contractor that the customer cusses out because they can't do what they want to do.

And I suppose they want you to be a mind reader too. If they don't know what they want neither do I so frankly I don't care. Back in the "old days" when I did care I used to put two phone and cable jacks in most rooms. I would look at the rooms and try to figure the furniture layout. But that was when everything was wired and less complicated. Today, unless there are specs for v/d/v I would just do the minimum. I can't be bothered with "what ifs" and try to cover everything I can think of. Besides, it's not my job and they wouldn't want to pay for it anyway. If the owner is really that much of a techie let him get a v/d/v company in there to do the place up. Today there are too many options and directions an installation can go for someone not in the industry to get involved with.

-Hal
 
Last edited:

egnlsn

Senior Member
Location
Herriman, UT
Occupation
A/V/Security Technician
No mind reading required -- 2+2 covers most scenarios. Doesn't cost that much more, yet you can charge twice as much.
 

hbiss

EC, Westchester, New York NEC: 2014
Location
Hawthorne, New York NEC: 2014
Occupation
EC
Every hotel I have ever wired has a data jack above the desk. and a phone line in a 2 port plate. and a phone by the bed (with a jack there too). afaik, you cannot legally rent a hotel/motel room that does not have a working telephone.

Ive been out of the commercial v/d/v for a few years, maybe hard wired internet was a short fad/craze, maybe you have only stayed at older properties that only have wireless.

No, these are new properties. I wasn't talking about phones. I believe you are correct about them being required in every room. However I can't even conceive of anybody using an ethernet jack in a room today. And like I said, mobil devices like phones and tablets will connect to WiFi for internet access instead of using the carrier and EVERYBODY uses one. In some locations WiFi can be more reliable than the cell service and vice versa. Access via WiFi also doesn't use up your data plan minutes. My wife has an iPad that is not even set up with a carrier, it's strictly WiFi. You can make internet phone calls too.

Probably the only place that didn't have WiFi is the Bates Motel. :p

-Hal
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
My wife and I do a lot of of hotel stays and hard wired data jacks are becoming less and less common. WiFi seems to be winning over and I would say. Hal nailed the reasons. Fewer lap top travelers and many more tablet and phone travelers.

Any decent laptop will have wifi if needed but no tablets or smart phones I know have ethernet connections.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top