How many of what size conductors feed a 4000A 3ph 4w 480V Service

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cflath

Member
Location
WA
I've read various posts here and on other sites that suggest 11 sets of 4ea 500mcm conductors is sufficient to feed a 4000A service. When I take the allowable ampacity of 500mcm wire at 75 deg, 380A, and derate to 80% for 4 current carrying conductors, I get 14 sets, not 11. Please, who is correct here?

Thanks for your input!

-Chris
 

roger

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Fl
Occupation
Retired Electrician
Why do you think the neutral is a current carrying conductor in your situation?

Roger
 

cflath

Member
Location
WA
I've done quite a bit more reading since posting my question, and so now I see where I am coming up with that difference. However to answer your question, the service is to feed a mill, and there will be a couple of large (400HP) VFD motors. I'm not sure if enough of the load is nonlinear to warrent counting the neutral as current carrying. Most of the lighting will be 76 T5 florescents, with some metal halide wall packs and high bays.
 

roger

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Fl
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Retired Electrician
The motors will not add to the neutral current and the little bit of HID and flourescent lighting will not be an issue. Eleven sets of conductors will be fine.

Roger
 

infinity

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Staff member
Location
New Jersey
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Journeyman Electrician
I agree with Roger. Forget the harmonic issues since your harmonic loading will be below 50% of the total load. Therefore no derating is required.

11 * 380 = 4180 amps, looks good.:grin:
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
I agree with the others but will add talk to the utility, many times they limit the number of sets brought to the pad mount to ten or less.

The 4000 amp services I have been involved with had 10 sets of 600 CU.
 
iwire said:
I agree with the others but will add talk to the utility, many times they limit the number of sets brought to the pad mount to ten or less.

The 4000 amp services I have been involved with had 10 sets of 600 CU.


This is the same here in lower NY. The Utility company was fooled by the thought that 500s could be used for multiple 400 amps, just like many electricians were.
 

charlie

Senior Member
Location
Indianapolis
Pierre C Belarge said:
The Utility company was fooled by the thought that 500s could be used for multiple 400 amps . . .
No, we are not fooled by that thought. However, we use a set of 500 kcmil Al. for each multiple of 400 amperes due to the fact that services are normally oversized in the smaller buildings and their load profiles are such that we can get away with smaller laterals. For the underground services, we provide service laterals for 1200 ampere services and below. For large overhead services, the service drop is sized to carry the full output of the transformer bank. The service drop is parallel 1000 kcmil Cu. for a 3000 ampere service. Skin effect is not a factor :wink: but taking up space on the building wall is a factor. We will not permit a service larger than 3000 amperes. :cool:
 

Karl H

Senior Member
Location
San Diego,CA
charlie said:
No, we are not fooled by that thought. However, we use a set of 500 kcmil Al. for each multiple of 400 amperes due to the fact that services are normally oversized in the smaller buildings and their load profiles are such that we can get away with smaller laterals. For the underground services, we provide service laterals for 1200 ampere services and below. For large overhead services, the service drop is sized to carry the full output of the transformer bank. The service drop is parallel 1000 kcmil Cu. for a 3000 ampere service. Skin effect is not a factor :wink: but taking up space on the building wall is a factor. We will not permit a service larger than 3000 amperes. :cool:
Is this all states? I just recently had a conversation with a guy that installed a 4000I system,and he said POCO pulled in AL that was too small. I was thinking to myself,Because POCO did the math and he couldn't utilize a 4000I service.Very interresting.
 

charlie

Senior Member
Location
Indianapolis
Karl H said:
Is this all states? I just recently had a conversation with a guy that installed a 4000I system, and he said POCO pulled in AL that was too small. I was thinking to myself, Because POCO did the math and he couldn't utilize a 4000I service. Very interesting.
All electric utilities do things a little differently and we share our procedures with each other. Some things one electric utility does may be picked up by another electric utility. However, you can't just assume we are all the same. In general, electric utilities will not supply customers with full size conductors or use "large enough transformers for a particular installation. The big difference is that we are always there and will beef up service drops or laterals, replace transformers, replace secondaries, and rework any other equipment at any time in the future if it is undersized or fails. This work will be done at no charge to the customer unless the customer has changed the parameters of his load. :cool:
 

hdpeng

Member
Location
Acworth, GA
iwire said:
I agree with the others but will add talk to the utility, many times they limit the number of sets brought to the pad mount to ten or less.

The 4000 amp services I have been involved with had 10 sets of 600 CU.
Just an added note: If the suppliers in your area are overcharging for 600's, you could use 9-sets of 750's (9 x 475 = 4275). This also cuts down on # of conduits. I've found that a lot of suppliers these days are trying to consider 600's to be a 'premium' or special order size. I don't see why, though, because I see many jobs out there using 600's. Has anyone else seen this to be the case in their area?
 

chaterpilar

Senior Member
Location
Saudi Arabia
I am assuming that in your service, length of the cable is not an issue as none of the members have asked it.

I would go for 12 runs of 500 kcmil copper for 4000 amps, if cable length less than 20 metres.
 

infinity

Moderator
Staff member
Location
New Jersey
Occupation
Journeyman Electrician
chaterpilar said:
I am assuming that in your service, length of the cable is not an issue as none of the members have asked it.

I would go for 12 runs of 500 kcmil copper for 4000 amps, if cable length less than 20 metres.


I'm curious, why 12 and not 11?
 
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