How should I run my conduit when it won't ever be seen

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Re: How should I run my conduit when it won't ever be seen

Bottom line, it depends on how much the customer can pay. If they can pay for art work, then do art work. If they can't, then you have to forgo a box offset here or there and not be so anal about how it looks.

BYW, it is possible to run raceways as the crow flies without doing a complete hack job.

Furthermore, an inspector can't fail a messy job just because the conduit doesn't run at all right angles. As long as the code isn't being violated, the job must pass inspection without issue.
 
Re: How should I run my conduit when it won't ever be seen

peter d, you may be correct to a point, but my vote goes with cs.
if a journeyman has pride in his work, it shows in his conduit runs. when i inspect and see a half-baked, albeit legal, conduit run, I sure check closer for code violations and unsafe conditions.
IMHO, a level and a square aren't necessarily needed, but neat, straight conduit runs box offsets can sure set a path for the inspector.

Its kinda like temporaries. I've yet to see a job pass the 1st inspection, if the temporary service was junky.
 
Re: How should I run my conduit when it won't ever be seen

Originally posted by peter d:
Bottom line, it depends on how much the customer can pay. If they can pay for art work, then do art work. If they can't, then you have to forgo a box offset here or there and not be so anal about how it looks.

BYW, it is possible to run raceways as the crow flies without doing a complete hack job.

Furthermore, an inspector can't fail a messy job just because the conduit doesn't run at all right angles. As long as the code isn't being violated, the job must pass inspection without issue.
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Personally, I'd rather forego working for those who don't have the money to afford top quality. Do I leave a lot of money on the table by playing it that way? Perhaps. But how much of that money I left behind comes in the form of bad checks? The bottom line, is I work for customers that expect better, and I expect them to inspect better. I deliberately avoid those customers that don't.

BTW, an inspector can reject a messy installation. After all, all work must be performed in "a neat and workman like manner." most of the inspectors I now reserve using that for the biggest of hacks, as it tends to lead to catfights. But, I do know at least one inspector who cites that more often than any other code article. Besides, finding a failure isn't hard when looking at sloppy work. Again I state, I have never seen a slip shod, as the crow flies pipe job that wasn't rife with loose fitting screws and locknuts, not to mention inadequate fastening of pipes. Lets be real honest here and admit that "fast and dirty" is just that, fast... and DIRTY. There may be a few electricians out there that can play fast and loose on pipe runs and still do an electrically sound, code compliant installation, perhaps you are one of them. Personally, I've never met one, nor have I ever seen the work of one. Anecdotally, I would presume that is a rare animal.
 
Re: How should I run my conduit when it won't ever be seen

For the record, I always run my conduit straight and take pains to make the job look good. I would never do work that the opening poster described.

But we also live in the bottom line, fast paced real world, and sometimes we have to lower our standards to get a job done within certain paramaters.

I am not advoacting violating the code, so I hope that is clear. :)
 
Re: How should I run my conduit when it won't ever be seen

Originally posted by luckyshadow:
I thought I was doing hack work when I failed to use box offsets above a ceiling ! Other then that straight plumb level like CS stated.
I quit working for a guy who wanted it ran as the crow flies !!
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There used to be an inspector, in West Allis Wisconsin that would fail you for not making box offsets. His theory: "you have to strap the pipe within 3 feet of the box, therefore the pipe drops 1/2" in that 3 feet, therefore your pipe is not entering the connector straight and true, therefore you cannot guarantee an adequate ground connection." With that inspector, you either made box offsets every time, used minnies, or ran a ground wire in every pipe. The last item on that list was what he really wanted.
 
Re: How should I run my conduit when it won't ever be seen

Originally posted by cselectric:

BTW, an inspector can reject a messy installation. After all, all work must be performed in "a neat and workman like manner." most of the inspectors I now reserve using that for the biggest of hacks, as it tends to lead to catfights.
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Where in the NEC can I find the definition of "neat and workmanlike?"

That code section is unenforceable. As you said yourself, the inspector should be able to find real violations on a hack job without relying on "neat and workmanlike."
 
Re: How should I run my conduit when it won't ever be seen

Originally posted by peter d:
Where in the NEC can I find the definition of "neat and workmanlike?"

That code section is unenforceable. As you said yourself, the inspector should be able to find real violations on a hack job without relying on "neat and workmanlike."
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Well, I usually look for definitions in Article 100 :D (just messin with ya')

But, I do know of municipalities that enforce that rule. Realistically, a municipality can enfore, or not enforce any part of the NEC they want. Adoption is, after all, completely voluntary and subject to revision or addendum as the local governing body sees fit. In my experience, the Electrical inspector often has a lot of sway in the adoption process, as he is often the only one in the confines of a city's governing body that has any electrical knowledge at all. If that inspector is a hard nose about neatness, then you will likely see the "neat and workmanlike manner" enforced.

But, I think we both agree, that is a cheap and lazy way to inspect, when there are likely many easy to spot violations waiting for that red tag.
 
Re: How should I run my conduit when it won't ever be seen

As for not using box offsets above ceiling and the pipe not entering square, I pull grounds in all my conduits. Pulling grounds in conduit is the norm here.
 
Re: How should I run my conduit when it won't ever be seen

I just do not buy the notion that a plumb and level raceway is any indicator of electrical safety. I am willing to give an example.

I recently ran two 2" and two 4" EMTs about 220' through an existing suspended ceiling in an occupied office building.

I scouted my route for quite sometime and found I could run the raceways straight if I had them almost touching the ceiling grid or I could go up to the beams and have conflicts with duct work.

Well IMO blocking ceiling tiles is lousy and a violation of 300.23.

My choice was run high and run the conduits pitched like a plumber does, over 50' of run I had to drop 5". We pulled a string from point to point and set our hangers to that.

Over the length of the entire 220' the pitch changes a few times, to go over ducts and under beams.

Yes I could bend in offsets, we have the tools, but then I end up with needing more pull points. It is not a matter of being cheap with pull boxes, it is the matter of what I would do with the conductors being pulled. They would end up laying across peoples desks.

If you go up in this ceiling the pipe runs look neat and workmanlike, 1 5/8" strut racks on 1/2" rod every 8' to 10', steel set screw fittings and 48" long pull boxes where I did need them. The only odd thing is the pitching.

It is not unsafe and it is not hack, it is an efficient use of time and materials and I would do it again.

Every situation has it's own problems and if you use the same answer for every problem IMO your not using an open mind.

JMO, Bob
 
Re: How should I run my conduit when it won't ever be seen

Bob, you did a great job, exactly the right thing. For one thing, you have the least number of bends in the pipe from point A to point B. Easier pull means less stress on the cable. You are off the ceiling tiles and those that come after you will bless you for it. As far as pitch goes I don't see any problem since most single story structures have a certain amount of pitch to the bar joist ( from front to rear of building ), a lot more than 5". What do these people do to keep their pipe level, space it down below the bar joist. Everyone I know uses the drive on Caddy style hangers for small conduit and run right with the red iron. What are you going to do, build a rack for a single run of 3/4" EMT. As far as box offsets, if you use the right materials ( Caddy Hangers) , you don't need box offsets because the pipe is already spaced correctly to enter a 1900 box. If you keep the number of bends down to the minimum you can push a lot of the wire from box to box ( saving much time ). Many of the companies that don't exactly do precision work in concealed area have been around for 50 years and have more than a 100 employees ( they had to change with the times ). If this is hack work, they do some really big jobs, including high rise buildings and shopping malls. Their conduit work looks fair above the grid but it will never be anything to write home to mom about. ( they keep getting paid and they stay in business ).

[ July 31, 2005, 08:51 AM: Message edited by: growler ]
 
Re: How should I run my conduit when it won't ever be seen

Originally posted by cselectric:
But, I do know at least one inspector who cites that [110.12] more often than any other code article.
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Sounds like a well-researched professional, that one. :roll:

[ July 31, 2005, 09:54 AM: Message edited by: georgestolz ]
 
Re: How should I run my conduit when it won't ever be seen

I don't see where your install meets any of the criteria discussed here Bob. For starters, plumb is a relative thing. What looks plumb and what is plumb are often different. When working a pitched roof, I run the bar joists just like everyone else. Is that truly plumb? In reference to the floor, it isn't. But it is parallel to the roof structure and therefore looks fine. I've also deliberately pitched pipes to match exisiting conditions. I ran an entire rack of 3/4" out of plumb down a 200' corridor because the tin knocker was there first and ran his duct out of plumb. My pipe rack matched his duct work perfectly and looked great. Had I ran plumb and level to the floor, or fully parallel to the ceiling, we both would have looked bad, and since he was in first the preception would have been that I was the one out of level... and perception beats reality every time.
 
Re: How should I run my conduit when it won't ever be seen

Thanks Growler and cselectric, it happens the deck I was attaching to was level as there where many floors above.

But certainly I work on many pitched decks and no doubt we follow the pitch.

Following existing conditions can be a skill itself.
 
Re: How should I run my conduit when it won't ever be seen

Following existing conditions can be a complete nightmare. I once had to rehang a pipe run I was working on because the tenant insisted I was running it out of level. It looked that way because I was running next to the plumbers DWV line, which was obviously pitched. It was then that I realized that "looking straight and level" is generally better than being straight and level.
 
Re: How should I run my conduit when it won't ever be seen

Originally posted by cselectric:
It was then that I realized that "looking straight and level" is generally better than being straight and level.
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No doubt.

I have learned that in many of the old red brick buildings in Boston the motor joints run down hill than back up. I am much better off just following the motor joint than picking up a level.
 
Re: How should I run my conduit when it won't ever be seen

We call the plub thing plumb to the world, or plumb to the existing conditions.
Funny story: We had a apprentice one summer that was in charge of wiring up a couple of new office trailers for the company. We chose to use 40 foot refer trailers as they can be heated easily, pulled to jobs easily and have tons of room. Anyhow, he was supposed to pipe the inside. We all gave him a hard time about making sure his pipe was plumb, true ect. (electrical contractors have to have good work) It was a slow time and he took his time. The job looked great, he used his torpedo level on everything. But he had only one problem, the trailers were not sitting level at all. All his conduit was plumb with the world, but not with the trailer. When they leveled the trailers, it was very apparent that the conduit was not strait anymore. It was pretty funny. We gave him a bad time and also the Journeyman that was supposed to be looking out for him. But I totally agree, I try to match building lines if they are crooked, if you run strait and true, it will really shout at you. Also, on the same line as what this thread is about, if you run good clean work, bend your offsets with a tape measure ect. Its very easy to go back in a match bends when you go back in. Guys that just bend a little here, little there, man its hard to make your stuff look the same.
 
Re: How should I run my conduit when it won't ever be seen

Originally posted by GG:
Originally posted by chelectrical:
[qb]

Most of my extra money is spent on beer and women, the rest I waste. :D
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Made my day, thanks.

For the record. I like romex, EMT, or anything else to be plumb, square, straight, etc. I will be the first to admit that there is almost never a rational need for this. If the romex is wavy as it follows the studs and makes a wide sweeping turn, it is a perfectly fine installation. I just don't like the way it looks.

I have spent time over the years trying to justify why romex needs to look crisp, flat and make nice radius turns. I finally gave up. I don't justify it anymore. I just do it.

Were it not for my wife, the walls in my home would be lexan, not sheetrock ;) I made that wire look great, someone ought to appreciate it. I felt the same way when the plumber who did my house finished. It was a shame to cover it up.
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