How to bid a "70% complete set of prints" project?

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wireman

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Serious question: How to bid a "70% complete set of prints" project?

The easy answer is to include quote language like "we are only bidding what is shown on this set of prints and spec's, anything else is extra"; but what other language or strategy can be used to successfully bid a project like this?

This subject will naturally bring a lot of snide comments, which I normally don't mind but I would appreciated serious responses.

FYI: I know the consultant putting the electrical prints together on this and I asked him about this and he said the end user's timetable could not wait until the design was complete.

Thanks in advance for all responses.
 
wireman said:
Serious question: How to bid a "70% complete set of prints" project?

The easy answer is to include quote language like "we are only bidding what is shown on this set of prints and spec's, anything else is extra"; but what other language or strategy can be used to successfully bid a project like this?

This subject will naturally bring a lot of snide comments, which I normally don't mind but I would appreciated serious responses.

FYI: I know the consultant putting the electrical prints together on this and I asked him about this and he said the end user's timetable could not wait until the design was complete.

Thanks in advance for all responses.
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Depending on the conditions of the bid, you should absolutely reserve the right to alter your submission based on the 100% construction drawings. I'd have to guess that at 70% you basically know what size switchgear (subject to change) you need and the main distribution (subject to change) and the general area loads (subject to change). And where exactly is this "70%"? Having just entered the world of MEP engineering, I found out that there are at least three levels of drawing; schematic design, detail design, and construction drawings. All of them with % completion phases. Which level are they actually in?
 
I think you have kind of answered your own question.

"Bid contingent on plans dated ... drawn by ... including sheets ... and specs dated ... by ... referencing project number ..." No other Division 26 Electrical work to be completed other than specifically referenced on the above documents.

OR some other exclusionary language of your liking.

OR don't bid it at all.
 
Nuber said:
I think you have kind of answered your own question.

"Bid contingent on plans dated ... drawn by ... including sheets ... and specs dated ... by ... referencing project number ..." No other Division 26 Electrical work to be completed other than specifically referenced on the above documents.

OR some other exclusionary language of your liking.

OR don't bid it at all.
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That was my first reaction.
 
Take all of the "knowns" and price them and all of the "unknowns" and address them....

If there are fixtures drawn, but not scheduled.....apply a price and come up with an allowance

If the riser is drawn, but no feeders are sized....size them yourself, takeoff, get a price on switchgear

If there are HVAC units drawn or scheduled......size the circuits and take them off

Get a budget price for fire alarm, lightning protection, generators, testing, etc from your vendors

If there are areas that have no electrical drawn......square foot it

Most jobs like this have a written design criteria, and specs to accompany the incomplete drawings

The key is to address everything you can possibly think of....+ the knowns + the unknowns + every item in the specs and design criteria, and give a price.

Make a design proposal and detail out EVERYTHING you have included, and what you have allowed, and what square foot prices you may have included.

Leave NO questions unanswered

If you pass on bidding this round, and tell them you will wait for 100% construction drawings, you will have missed an opportunity.

If you stick with this throughout the design completion, a good GC will appreciate it, and you will be in a position to be on the short list for the final pricing.

Have ever heard of conceptual estimating? This is it.....

Some EC's have estimators, that all they do is this type of pricing. And they are very good at it
 
When I do this, I specifically list which pages are included in my proposal, and anything not detailed in the schedule I give an allowance for. I also give a budget for things like site work that may not be fully drawn yet.

Just something like, "this proposal is based on drawings E1.0, E2.0, etc..... dated 9/9/9 by architect & engineer...."




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Most v/d/v jobs we did weren't even print specific other than variously shaded triangles on walls and "MDF here". iow, completely incomplete. Estimated the best we could based on previous experience of known projects of similar size and type.

There was one job we did where no one (not the limited energy nor EC) had been contracted to do the PTAC thermostat wiring. I offered to do it but only if I saw the exact PTACs being bought. Never got that info, never bid it, which was good, because what was eventually chosen required 18/10 wiring, and the EC pulling out all the 18/6 he had run and already firestopped (all 100 guest rooms' worth). I relate that story because the littlest of things can hurt or sink you if you wing it. I've seen more than one commercial EC go under due to one large project gone bad (tho it's been more of a pay issue than bad estimating).
 
cdslotz said:
Take all of the "knowns" and price them and all of the "unknowns" and address them....

If there are fixtures drawn, but not scheduled.....apply a price and come up with an allowance

If the riser is drawn, but no feeders are sized....size them yourself, takeoff, get a price on switchgear

If there are HVAC units drawn or scheduled......size the circuits and take them off

Get a budget price for fire alarm, lightning protection, generators, testing, etc from your vendors

If there are areas that have no electrical drawn......square foot it

Most jobs like this have a written design criteria, and specs to accompany the incomplete drawings

The key is to address everything you can possibly think of....+ the knowns + the unknowns + every item in the specs and design criteria, and give a price.

Make a design proposal and detail out EVERYTHING you have included, and what you have allowed, and what square foot prices you may have included.

Leave NO questions unanswered

If you pass on bidding this round, and tell them you will wait for 100% construction drawings, you will have missed an opportunity.

If you stick with this throughout the design completion, a good GC will appreciate it, and you will be in a position to be on the short list for the final pricing.

Have ever heard of conceptual estimating? This is it.....

Some EC's have estimators, that all they do is this type of pricing. And they are very good at it
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=======================

cdslotz, thanks for the very detailed response. You are correct that we'll have missed an opportunity if we wait on 100% drawings.
Thanks again.
 
Something to conciser is how long has the project been on hold.
If it's been any considerable amount there may have been theft, vandalism, or damage.

Vegas is filled with incomplete projects.
Fountaineblu
Spent over $2 billion constructing the 68 story hotel, condo, casino.
In 2008 it was 70% complete.
Much of the hotel tower was done and furnished.
Construction costs went over due to all the changes.
Some of it was due to the fast pace of the construction to build the submitted drawings while they were drawing out what they really wanted built.
Causing constant changes.
BoA cut off funding.
In bankruptcy it sold for $156 million.
The new owner scrapped what he could in the property.

Only rumors of how much copper and electrical gear still remains.
About every floor has missing windows. The story is the floors are damaged with water, mold, homeless, and birds.

Estimated cost to finish, 2 billion.

The Venetian Hotel started a Condo tower St Regis on top of the casino.
Construction stopped 2008. A few of the lower condos looked ready for final trim out. It had a pool that was 1/2 on the Venetian pool deck outside and went into the inside with a glass wall in the middle. The restaurants kitchens built. Addelson stopped the construction, not even finishing the exterior. The outside was wrapped with a canvas with the image of the building printed on it. Over the years the lower areas were reallocated for temporary purposes. Anything mechanical was run across the areas with no regard of finishing it. Such as conduits across the never used pool, pull cans below the finished ceiling of the Valet. Electrical ran for one thing but never used was reallocated for something else. It took a few EE's a few days to draw up as builts to submit and close out the permits. But they say they still plan on finishing the tower.
 
wireman said:
FYI: I know the consultant putting the electrical prints together on this and I asked him about this and he said the end user's timetable could not wait until the design was complete.
Click to expand...

that... tells you a lot. the fart in a skillet strategy is running
on this one.

unless you are prepared to do a "free" design build so you
have something to quote, and document all of that, with
copious exclusions and limitations, my experience with
something like this, is that you go to a lot of time and
effort to put a realistic number down, and the "customer"
which usually turns out to be a low pressure airhead,
just grabs the lowest bid, which won't be yours, and
sails off to disaster.

how big a job are you talking about here, roughly?
it's one thing to bid $10~20k on something, and quite
another to bid $788k.

the bigger the job running fast and loose, the more
weight to make the wheels come off it.

you are starting the downhill run, and the lug nuts on
your wheels are 70% installed.

the problem isn't that the design is half done, it's that
nobody has really got a plan going on this. i personally
hate flailing.
 
Give them 70% of the bid:D

Take that however you want to, maybe it means give them seven pages of what would have been 10 pages of bid documents? Of course with the total bid amount on the missing pages.
 
wireman said:
Serious question: How to bid a "70% complete set of prints" project?

The easy answer is to include quote language like "we are only bidding what is shown on this set of prints and spec's, anything else is extra"; but what other language or strategy can be used to successfully bid a project like this?
Click to expand...
Can you work out from the 70% what the remaining 30% of the prints might include?
Then "At this stage the available information is incomplete. We have based our bid on available information and our estimate (based on experience if you wish) of what may be included in the complete set of drawings. Should the scope (significantly) differ from this we will review our bid accordingly."
And list what you are including.

That way, the customer has an estimate for the complete scope of the works as envisaged at this stage and you are not committed to providing anything beyond what you offered.
For me, "anything else is extra" sounds almost antagonistic.
 
"FYI: I know the consultant putting the electrical prints together on this and I asked him about this and he said the end user's timetable could not wait until the design was complete."

Big red flag! If the end user's timetable can't wait for the design to be completed (let alone what the final numbers will be), you have to wonder what kind of construction schedule is to follow. It looks like a train wreck in the making.
 
stevenje said:
Big red flag! If the end user's timetable can't wait for the design to be completed (let alone what the final numbers will be), you have to wonder what kind of construction schedule is to follow. It looks like a train wreck in the making.
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the OP does not say what state this train is running in, but if the job
is in Calif. and the title 24 stuff isn't in order, there is no way in hell
i'd bid it.

i just finished a lighting certification today. 23,000 sq ft high end office
space. i spent 3 hours of the 16 hours i've got into this, getting approval
from on high that i could interperet the title 24:2016 code in a way that
allowed the building to be certified.

the answer was "yes". if the answer had been "no" the EC could have removed
12,000 sq ft of archectural lighing, and put something else in it's place, as the
code changed the first of the year, and what would work then won't work now,
and the permits were pulled in january, not december as i was told.

i'd guess fixing it would be above $150k or so. and it was just a little oopsie.

you bid a 70% anything in california, you deserve what will happen to you.
 
Fulthrotl said:
unless you are prepared to do a "free" design build so you
have something to quote, and document all of that, with
copious exclusions and limitations, my experience with
something like this, is that you go to a lot of time and
effort to put a realistic number down, and the "customer"
which usually turns out to be a low pressure airhead,
just grabs the lowest bid, which won't be yours, and
sails off to disaster.
Click to expand...
I don't greatly disagree with that.
As long as you specify clearly what is included in your bid and ask for any variations in writing, you have your backside covered.
Even if you don't get the project a no bid could result in being excluded from other opportunities from that source.
 
Besoeker said:
Can you work out from the 70% what the remaining 30% of the prints might include?
Then "At this stage the available information is incomplete. We have based our bid on available information and our estimate (based on experience if you wish) of what may be included in the complete set of drawings. Should the scope (significantly) differ from this we will review our bid accordingly."
And list what you are including.

That way, the customer has an estimate for the complete scope of the works as envisaged at this stage and you are not committed to providing anything beyond what you offered.
For me, "anything else is extra" sounds almost antagonistic.
Click to expand...

The problem is that there is no solid definition of "70%" to hang your hat on. If there were, you might be able to anticipate the open scope items. Not to mention, is it schematic design, detail design, or construction documents?
 
Besoeker said:
Even if you don't get the project a no bid could result in being excluded from other opportunities from that source.
Click to expand...

that's quite true. we all do a lot of "free" stuff to keep our
hat in the ring.

it comes with that longer view that sometimes needs to be
taken.... "at the end of the day" sometimes needs to be
"at the end of the year".
 
Thanks again for all of your responses.
It's a big warehouse with temperature control and storage and we'd just be bidding the controls part.
The missing part for me is that no one is saying what "70%" means. Does it mean 90% of the structural is complete, 70% of the mechanical is done and only 10% of the controls are done, etc. etc. etc.

We'll figure something out.
 
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