How to bid a remodel?

[stevenje]

I would never show the GC a cost per outlet. Instead I would produce a quote (one price) for the entire job. It would be a two day job for me, and a helper.

That works great until he asks you how much it would cost to add another outlet.

 

[Strummed]

That works great until he asks you how much it would cost to add another outlet.

That right there is one of my pet peeves.

You can flat rate a job for the entire thing but once in a while you get customers picking through everything. "Well, how much for just this? What's that cost alone? What if I add only one?"

 

[Strummed]

People at the assembly plant do make mistakes, there are numerous possibilities. Pinched conductor, damaged insulation, defective components, loose parts, foreign materials contacting circuit components and grounded components, someone simply connected something the wrong way, unit was assembled near the end of the day on a Friday ....

The appliance is most likely under warranty. Although much of what you mentioned could be inspected by an electrician, I would personally leave it to an appliance repairman.

 

[kwired]

Note to greg1707:
1. Under 2011 NEC, a refrigerator in a residential kitchen is not required to be GFCI protected. It can be on a SA circuit upstream from the GFCI. I think good practice is to run a separate unprotected 20 amp circuit for the refrig.
2. If you ran a 15 amp separate circuit for the refrig and it had GFCI protection, the GFCI device would be behind the refrig. I think this is a Code violation because it is not readily accessible. (if you have a GFCI breaker, that is Code legal.)
3. I think it is a bad idea to run a 15 amp circuit to two stationary appliances that are rated 11 amps and 6.7 amps. That is 17.7 amps. But it may not be a violation. There is a rule that a dedicated circuit to one appliance is limited to 50% of the circuit rating, but I do not think that applies to two appliances. (but it should)
4. If the manufacturer requires a separate 15 amp circuit, it is a Code violation to share that circuit.
5. It is not required, but I run a separate 20 amp circuit to the range hood anticipating a future MW at that location.
I suggest you return to the job, run a separate circuit to the range and remove the GFCI if it is behind the refrigerator.
Incidentally, I do not buy this "refrig are better nowadays, so put them on a GFCI." Most of them are much worse...I think you know why.

1. The refrigerator does not require GFCI. The receptacle it is plugged into may require GFCI - depends where it is located. If it also is a receptacle serving a kitchen countertop - then it must be GFCI protected. If it is located in a garage, unfinished basement, within 6 feet of a sink, then the recepacle will require GFCI. The refrigerator itself does not require GFCI.

2. I agree.

3. The code you are looking for is 210.23(A) (1&2):

(1) Cord-and-Plug-Connected Equipment Not Fastened in Place. The rating of any one cord-and-plug-connected utilization equipment not fastened in place shall not exceed 80 percent of the branch-circuit ampere rating.

(2) Utilization Equipment Fastened in Place. The total rating of utilization equipment fastened in place, other than luminaires, shall not exceed 50 percent of the branch-circuit ampere rating where lighting units, cord-and-plug-connected utilization equipment not fastened in place, or both, are also supplied.

The 50% rule applies to fastened in place utilization equipment that is 50% or more of the branch circuit rating.

4. I agree

5. I do not know if refrigerators are better or not than they used to be. I think they have improvements, but also have setbacks, most of which have little to do with whether or not there will be ground fault issues. I have had cases of pretty old refrigerators or freezers tripping GFCI's long ago when they are used in basements, garages, etc. but were just fine before moving them to that location. In each case there was an existing problem with the appliance, it just did not have a GFCI to expose the problem until they moved it to the garage or basement.

The appliance is most likely under warranty. Although much of what you mentioned could be inspected by an electrician, I would personally leave it to an appliance repairman.

I agree. I have also seen many appliance repairmen that think the GFCI is at fault when it trips, and I have to find the problem for them. Bottom line is they do not understand GFCI.

 

[Greg1707]

Have appliance specs before bidding job

Have appliance specs before bidding job

These suggestions are interesting but miss the point of my original post. Make sure you have all of the appliance specifications before bidding or beginning work on a kitchen remodel! The thread is "How to bid a remodel?"

I will restate my cautionary tale. I wired a kitchen remodel and was told the existing gas range would be replaced by a new gas range. I placed the gas range as well as the refrigerator on one of the small appliance circuits. The circuit was GFCI protected. It turns out the new gas range had an electric warming oven and required a dedicated circuit. Although many forum members provide a separate circuit for the refrigerator, doing so in this case still would not have anticipated the requirement of a separate circuit for the gas range. Therefore, it is best to have the specs before beginning work since I had not anticipated a gas range with and electric warming oven.

 

[Strummed]

These suggestions are interesting but miss the point of my original post. Make sure you have all of the appliance specifications before bidding or beginning work on a kitchen remodel! The thread is "How to bid a remodel?"

I will restate my cautionary tale. I wired a kitchen remodel and was told the existing gas range would be replaced by a new gas range. I placed the gas range as well as the refrigerator on one of the small appliance circuits. The circuit was GFCI protected. It turns out the new gas range had an electric warming oven and required a dedicated circuit. Although many forum members provide a separate circuit for the refrigerator, doing so in this case still would not have anticipated the requirement of a separate circuit for the gas range. Therefore, it is best to have the specs before beginning work since I had not anticipated a gas range with and electric warming oven.

In all fairness, you did nothing wrong. You did as the customer said. Running the new circuit is an extra which is a good thing, not a bad one.

 

[mlnk]

You are correct, k wired, the stationary appliances, even though they are large, are not fastened in place, so each one is not to exceed 80% of the cir rating. Just do not turn them all on at once.

I agree it is an excellent idea to have the actual appliances on site. I ran #8 Cu to a double oven location, figured that most of them spec #10, so that would handle anything.. The appliance arrives on the finish. The specs were: supply with #6 CU on a 50 amp breaker. The wire in the flex from the oven: #10 !

I still say as long as the Code allows it, no GFCI for kitchen refrigerators.

 

[Speshulk]

Note to greg1707:
1. Under 2011 NEC, a refrigerator in a residential kitchen is not required to be GFCI protected. It can be on a SA circuit upstream from the GFCI. I think good practice is to run a separate unprotected 20 amp circuit for the refrig.

Agreed, but I'm wondering how a refrigerator is a "Small Appliance."

 

[AllCircuitsElectrical]

These suggestions are interesting but miss the point of my original post. Make sure you have all of the appliance specifications before bidding or beginning work on a kitchen remodel! The thread is "How to bid a remodel?"

I will restate my cautionary tale. I wired a kitchen remodel and was told the existing gas range would be replaced by a new gas range. I placed the gas range as well as the refrigerator on one of the small appliance circuits. The circuit was GFCI protected. It turns out the new gas range had an electric warming oven and required a dedicated circuit. Although many forum members provide a separate circuit for the refrigerator, doing so in this case still would not have anticipated the requirement of a separate circuit for the gas range. Therefore, it is best to have the specs before beginning work since I had not anticipated a gas range with and electric warming oven.

best i know you cannot run the frig off the small appliance circuit in a kitchen ...
if the frig is a dedicated 15 amp circuit then nothing else can be tapped from it .... if it is 20 amps then you can tap it ..

we ususally run about 8 circuits to the kitchen ..

lights ( this may be from other sources then its AFCI )
2 small appliance circuits ( the only GFI's )
frig
microwave
gas stove/hood
dishwasher
garbage disposal

 

[kwired]

best i know you cannot run the frig off the small appliance circuit in a kitchen ...
if the frig is a dedicated 15 amp circuit then nothing else can be tapped from it .... if it is 20 amps then you can tap it ..

we ususally run about 8 circuits to the kitchen ..

lights ( this may be from other sources then its AFCI )
2 small appliance circuits ( the only GFI's )
frig
microwave
gas stove/hood
dishwasher
garbage disposal

Read 210.52(B)(1) carefully.

(B) Small Appliances.

(1) Receptacle Outlets Served. In the kitchen, pantry, breakfast room, dining room, or similar area of a dwelling unit, the two or more 20-ampere small-appliance branch circuits required by 210.11(C)(1) shall serve all wall and floor receptacle outlets covered by 210.52(A), all countertop outlets covered by 210.52(C), and receptacle outlets for refrigeration equipment.

Exception No. 1: In addition to the required receptacles specified by 210.52, switched receptacles supplied from a general-purpose branch circuit as defined in 210.70(A)(1), Exception No. 1, shall be permitted.

Exception No. 2: The receptacle outlet for refrigeration equipment shall be permitted to be supplied from an individual branch circuit rated 15 amperes or greater.

This entire section is for Small appliance branch circuits. It includes receptacle outlets for refrigeration equipment. Exception 2 allows a 15 amp circuit for the refrigeration equipment, but does not exempt this circuit from being a small appliance branch circuit.

From your list:
lights ( this may be from other sources then its AFCI )
Is a circuit in the kitchen, can not be part of the SABC's

2 small appliance circuits ( the only GFI's )You must have at least two SABC's serving kitchen counter receptacles, but all the receptacles areas mentioned in 210.52(B)(1) must be supplied by SABC's and can have no other outlets. You can have two SABC's supplying all the mentioned receptacles, or you can have unlimited number of SABC's supplying those receptacles.

frig
is included in the list of things on the SABC's

microwave
can be on a SABC, if wall mounted or in a cabinet, it may not be considered allowed on SABC in most cases.

gas stove/hood
Receptacle for ignitor/clock for a gas stove is allowed on SABC, Hood is not, but depending on if cord and plug connected could be on the 15 amp circuit with the lighting.

dishwasher
Usually fits in the fastened in place category and is on an individual branch circuit

garbage disposal
Same as dishwasher

 

[kwired]

Agreed, but I'm wondering how a refrigerator is a "Small Appliance."

Does physical size really matter when it comes to the definition of "small appliance"?

Most refrigerators do not draw that much load as compared to many appliances that are much smaller in physical size.