How to Endure the NEC-An Answer

[don_resqcapt19]

Re: How to Endure the NEC-An Answer

Bennie,

The rules should be definite and leave no room for questioning.

But then we couldn't have any fun on forums like this one.

You are, of course, correct that the code needs a lot of work. It could be written in a manner that would serve both the legal purpose and the common user.
Don

 

[bennie]

Re: How to Endure the NEC-An Answer

Don: I agree, there is probably no composition with more different interpretations, than the NEC, except the bible, and constitution.

 

[charlie b]

Re: How to Endure the NEC-An Answer

We humans have something in common with the NEC: We, too, are what we are because of a slow process of evolution that began well before any of us were born.

It is possible to perform a ?technical writer?s? job on the NEC, thereby making it far more clear, more concise, more readily usable. But that would come at a great price (and I don?t mean cash): All of us who are accustomed to going to specific locations and paragraphs to get specific tidbits of information (e.g., quick, tell me where to find a table of cable ampacities ?-- time?s up, the answer is 310.16) would no longer know where to find things. That would be difficult for many ?old-timers? to accept.

And by the way, pilots do have, and continuously use, a set of ?how to fly? references. The real point is that this is not how they first learned to fly.

 

[bennie]

Re: How to Endure the NEC-An Answer

My point is being misunderstood. I have no problem with trade, or craft instruction manuals. My problem is the instruction manuals for understanding the instruction manuals.

I am presently studying computer editing of digital photographs. My biggest problem in understanding, and learning, is the extensive use of initials for some devices. By the time I find out the meaning, I forget what I was doing.

 

[charlie]

Re: How to Endure the NEC-An Answer

By the time I find out the meaning, I forget what I was doing.

Bennie, I am thankful I never have that problem. My biggest problem is that the memory tends to go . . . UH . . . somewhere when we get past 40 and I am 60. My memory is about as long as my . . .

 

[charlie b]

Re: How to Endure the NEC-An Answer

Originally posted by bennie: My problem is the instruction manuals for understanding the instruction manuals.

But what Tom first described is not one of these. It is an instruction manual for understanding a ?book of legal requirements.? I think we would all agree that the NEC would not qualify as an ?instruction manual.?

 

[physis]

Re: How to Endure the NEC-An Answer

That's a good point Charlie, it sure isn't that. Maybe I'm expecting too much from it. But it being the rules that must be adhered to shouldn't there be at least as much responsability to electricians as lawyers?

[ May 12, 2003, 03:07 PM: Message edited by: physis ]

 

[bennie]

Re: How to Endure the NEC-An Answer

Definition of "code", a book of rules.
Definition of "rules" Instructions for conduct.
The NEC meets the smell test of an instruction manual :roll:

 

[physis]

Re: How to Endure the NEC-An Answer

It's unfair to use English rules on the NEC, it's not designed to be used that way.

 

[charlie]

Re: How to Endure the NEC-An Answer

The NEC has always been somewhat of an instruction manual. However it "is not intended as a design specification or an instruction manual for untrained persons." (90.1(C))

 

[charlie]

Re: How to Endure the NEC-An Answer

It's unfair to use English rules on the NEC, it's not designed to be used that way.

Physis, that is not really a true statement. The Code is written to use the English language and the common definition of words unless the definition is changed by the Code. For instance within sight is easy to define, even my wife would understand what I meant. However, the Code more narrowly defines it to mean within 50 feet in addition to being able to see it. That is why it is so important to know the Code definitions of words. That is where a sound training program helps so much. The use of Code terminology and word definitions is infused into the various portions of the training program so the Code language becomes second nature. At that point, reading the Code becomes so much easier than for the young apprentice.

 

[charlie b]

Re: How to Endure the NEC-An Answer

Originally posted by bennie: Definition of "code", a book of rules.
Definition of "rules" Instructions for conduct. The NEC meets the smell test of an instruction manual

MORE TO THE POINT:

Two Definitions of ?Instruction?:
(1) The act or practice of teaching.
(2) Orders or directions.
When you say ?Definition of ?rules? Instructions for conduct,? you are using definition (2). When you say ?The NEC meets the smell test of an instruction manual,? you are using definition (1). It violates the ?rules? of logical reasoning to use two different definitions of a single word in the same argument.

The NEC does ?instruct? the reader, in the context of providing orders (or directions) regarding what is, and what is not, acceptable (under the law) for electrical installations. But the NEC does not ?instruct? the reader, in the context of teaching us how to perform electrical installations. So, I submit that the NEC does not pass the ?smell test? of an ?Instruction Manual.?

{Source: Random House College Dictionary.}

 

[physis]

Re: How to Endure the NEC-An Answer

Charlie,

I was being sarcastic, perhaps I shouldn't do that.

As far as training, I agree with you. You can't become trained by reading the NEC. I'm not satisfied with my level of aptitude in the electrical field and my current mission is to become more qualified. It may be that a course at the local college would be a good idea.

But none of that detracts in anyway from what I've said before about the NEC.

[ May 12, 2003, 04:30 PM: Message edited by: physis ]

 

[charlie]

Re: How to Endure the NEC-An Answer

Sarcasm or any other type comments are not a problem. The problem is interpretation of what you mean when you write a statement . . . sounds familiar doesn't it? I attempt to put in a lot of humor where possible, after all, the Code is just a book of rules. That is why I avail myself of the "Instant Graemlins" and use the UBB code a lot.

 

[physis]

Re: How to Endure the NEC-An Answer

Charlie,

Agreed, I was going to use the wink but I opted not to. The post was misinterpretable.
My apologies

I should also differentiate between you and Charlie B.

And Bennie, I meant to be on your side, even though I do agree with Charlie B on the definition thing.

[ May 12, 2003, 05:39 PM: Message edited by: physis ]

 

[charlie]

Re: How to Endure the NEC-An Answer

Maybe we could use that stuff in the Code to lighten it up a little . . . NAH.

 

[bennie]

Re: How to Endure the NEC-An Answer

I don't know what the definition of the NEC is, or the literature classification.

I have a booklet in front of me, it has the following printed on the cover... Oregon
State Motor Vehicle Code, Instruction Manual.

This book does not teach you drive, only how to drive correctly.

Is there any similarities with the National Electric Code?

 

[definitive]

Re: How to Endure the NEC-An Answer

Code: def;
1.)A systematically arranged and comprehensive collection of laws.
2.)A systematic collection of regulations and rules of procedure or conduct: a traffic code .

Maybe they do.

 

[karl riley]

Re: How to Endure the NEC-An Answer

Couldn't resist a comment: Rather than object to the wording in the NEC, how about choosing one NEC paragraph that you think is poorly stated, quote it, and then state how you would word it.

Anyone up to trying this?
Karl

 

[bphgravity]

Re: How to Endure the NEC-An Answer

Ive got a few:

"500.2 Associated Nonincendive Field Wiring Apparatus. Apparatus in which circuits are not necessarily nonincendive themselves but that affect the energy in noincendive field wiring circuits and are relied upon to maintian noincendive energy levels." HUH!!