How Would You React?

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360Youth

360Youth

Senior Member
Location
Newport, NC
Starting roughing in a home a week or so ago and it has been very agrivating because of the lack of electrical layout. HO has hired a decorator, which I later find out that they are cousins, which may or may not be of consequense, because the design company is very reputable and experienced to the best of my knowledge, but I thought I would include the bit of info. It is a 3-story, waterfront, 9,000 sqft house. Maple floors, mahagony windows and doors, well over $300,000 cabinet allowance, and then I get a set of plans with penciled in "electrical" plans with no legend whatsoever and a walk-thru of, for the most part, "Give me some lights over here" and "Well, I am still working on that bathroom," etc. On another walk-thru the other day, we got most of the lights and boxes in place on the top floor, so I wanted some sort of approval before I start pulling wire, but there is no switch locations or lighting design outside of general recessed and fan locations. So when I bring it up, I am told, "Just figure something out." (In so many words, but not exact.) I appreciate the confidence and I always offer my opinions to switching layout having done so many houses for so many years, but should it be the EC making such layout decisions on a project of this magnitude. I can do the job, and given the time, I am coming up with what I believe to be suitable layouts, but I just don't know... It seems a bit much to me and is adding considerably to the time on each circuit. HOs are in Key West, I think, so there is no input or confirmation. I have done houses of this size, and very rarely do I have anything resembling an engineered electrical design, but this is a stretch, to say the least. How would you handle it?
 
You have to take the home owner and their designer through the home and lay out exactly what they "want to have" then fill in the spaces to make it code compliant. this is how I do it and it takes me 8-9 hrs with the homeowner to make this happen, you have to demand that they do this and spend the time with you so they are happy with the end product. I wont start nailing boxes or drilling holes till they do.
 
Sounds pretty typical of how I work when wiring new homes. Just a walk and talk to prepare the bid. Sometimes several as the job progresses. Seldom do I ever get E sheets on a home. I like to have a room-by-room contractual scope of work in larger homes like this, however. Use your noodle, ask the right questions, keep a running list of questions for when the homeowner comes around, and it'll be okay. I can see this going sideways on you if the person wanted to be finicky in the end, but I haven't run into folks like that. Other guys certainly may have.

I appreciate the input of decorators, but you really need to clear up with the HO if the decorator is empowered to make design changes and potentially sign change orders. Sorta stinks taking orders from two, sometimes conflicting, people. Don't let them get away with "some lights over here". Point to specific spots and such and make them tell you "yes" or "6 inches over", or "3 would be better than two". If they're leaving switching decisions up to you, this is what I do... every door gets a swtich to everything in that room that's switched.

Consequently, this sorta sounds like maybe you're wiring this T&M???
 
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Prints are usually useless in any custom home, so do a walk-through and give them what they want. how did you get the job? is this something you bid or are doing T&M? By your post I hope your doing this T&M.
 
I like your idea about having them sign off on the layout before you pull wire. With no set plans you have nothing to go back on. Sounds like change order city if your not careful. I've been on these types when you lay it all out and when they see it in real life they end up not liking it. Even when everything has been covered. I can't believe that with all the fancy work that seems to be going into this house they would have lighting as an after thought. Having money don't make you smart or practical. Good luck. :grin:
 
Walk-thrus are common place for sure, but there is just a little too much leeway in this one, IMO. What is happening is we put the boxes and lights up and then given the ok to start pulling wire. Maybe I am making too much of it, but I don't remember making this many of the decisions on my own and hoping it is what they are looking for. I think it is the EC's job to make the design code compliant, not do both.
 
360Youth said:
Maybe I am making too much of it, but I don't remember making this many of the decisions on my own and hoping it is what they are looking for. I think it is the EC's job to make the design code compliant, not do both.
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I make alot of decisions for people, :grin: If they can't figure it out I will, hey its only time and money, I dont care how many times I have to do it...:grin:
 
frizbeedog said:
I can't believe that with all the fancy work that seems to be going into this house they would have lighting as an after thought. Having money don't make you smart or practical. Good luck. :grin:
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Right! Fancy work doesn't mean that details have been planned for, or even thought about. Millwork details in most homes are almost unheard of, in my experience, or situations like this could be avoided:

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And by all means, document, document, document!

Getting it all in writing may seem like a waste of time & trees at the beginning, but will save your arse when it comes down to the acceptance.

Nothing is more aggrevating than a HO who, while you're standing there with your hand out expecting to get paid, saying, "But I wanted such-and-such here, and a so-and-so over here! I know I told you!"
 
personally I would make an appt with designer and homeowner and tell them you need a couple of hours with them, then walk thru house and layout exact heights and locations etc. you have no choice but to try to help them design it since the designer is dropping the ball. you need to make clear the pitfalls and costs of missing stuff or them having you move stuff later. good luck
 
I often tell people, "If you move it before I start wiring, it's free.
If you move it after I wire it, it's 100 bucks.
If you move it after the drywall is up, it's 500 bucks.
If you move it after the polyurathane and paint have dried, it's 1,000 bucks."

THAT gets their attention.
 
480sparky said:
I often tell people, "If you move it before I start wiring, it's free.
If you move it after I wire it, it's 100 bucks.
If you move it after the drywall is up, it's 500 bucks.
If you move it after the polyurathane and paint have dried, it's 1,000 bucks."

THAT gets their attention.
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What if they move it themselves? :mad: I've had that experience more than once. Twice it was the new homeowner, and the GC's tuned them up for me. Once, it was the GC. "I didn't want to bother you for one little thing", he said. I'd have had less of a problem with it if it wasn't for the fact that he used 14 from a 20 amp circuit.
 
On mega mansions I try to squeeze in a hefty sum up front in my bid for walk-thru time. I have never done a 9,000 sq ft thank God. Most go around 4,000 and I put a buck a square foot into the bid for that. By the time I'm done I usually still loose some money on the walk thru factor even at a buck a foot.
I will not change layouts for free even if I haven't started wiring, unless it does not cost me anything to do it. Changes, and figuring out impact to wiring layout costs time and money, so you need to make money on that spent time and money.
 
360Youth said:
How would you handle it?
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Start with "Either give me a complete set of plans, or I'll have to add engineering costs." Do nothing extra free, even if it's mental work. Who did the load calcs? Who worked with the POCO?

Then, do as the other guys said and do a room-by-room layout, and don't leave out any detail, right down to the inch of placement, the grouping of switches, and the locations of appliances.

You need to know the height of cabinet bottoms that will have lighting under them, to the 1/4". You also want a cut sheet (specs) of each and every appliance, HVAC component, fixture, etc.

I did a 7800 sq.ft. house (not including the 3000+ basement) a couple of years ago, and the owner (and self GC) was a dream to work with. He was always on site, and he liked just about every suggestion I made.

We did stuff like split-wired receptacles in bedrooms, living room, etc., a large portion of the lighting is remote-controlled and/or automated, lit cubbies in a few places, dark-room lighting for his photography biz, etc.

He also supplied all materials, or reimbursed me, plus mark-up, for anything I supplied. I also did the LV wiring: A/V, CAT-5, satellite cabling, plones, sky-light blinds' remote wiring, etc.

Not to brag (Okay, to brag :roll:), he told me that we were the only trade on the job that passed any inspection on the first trip (in fact, it was every one). This is one of my favorite jobs of all time. I'll post some pix soon.
 
I usually start with what they give me - figuratively that is - then go room to room myself with everything that doesn't make sense - which can often be a huge list - then send it to them in an e-mail, and request a site meeting and tack it on to the job somehow as a 'design consultation'.

Example:
M.bed
  • No electrical outlets shown - please advise. (Code requires no less than 6')
  • No switching shown - please advise. (Code requires at least one at the entrance to each room)
  • No Phone, Data, or CATV shown - Please advise.
  • Elevations show a cabinet that appears to be suited for a flat-screen TV - if so, please advise.
Etc. etc. Often by the time you do one room you can copy and paste the rest of them..... This way they come half way prepared for the day you spend several hours drilling them for information that will pass inspection in the very least. And they may even have given some thought as to how they will use each room while the stare deeply into the list.

While it sounds like you have walked them through already - it does sound like you need to lead them by the hand a bit more. I have had to put the smile on and tell people straight, "Look I'm here to sell you happiness at the end of the job - and the more I know about what is going to make you happy - the happier you will be..." - Even if it is a bid job - you can be awe struck by the amount of change orders than be generated by just asking them what they really want. And really - if you don't - they'll just point the finger at you in the end if you don't....

If they give you the "You'll figure something out " take on it again - might I suggest some expensive automation package you can go to town on.... Throw out an outragous number just to see if they bite on the idea then "go to town" if they do... :grin:

And by all means - when the answer all of the questions - resend the list to them with the answers they gave you. And create an ever expanding file on everything.
 
How did you bid it without a print?


I would have bid it high and spent whatever time was necessary to get everything laid out right.
 
220/221 said:
How did you bid it without a print?


I would have bid it high and spent whatever time was necessary to get everything laid out right.
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Ditto on this.I have taken basic floor plans and drawn the electric to show the home owner and as we walked thru I would put the changes on my drawing and then at the end the HO would sign my sheet and we would start nailing boxes.When all boxes and lights were in we did another walk through and any changes were noted and extra cost agreed upon and then signed.Then wire was pulled and a final walk through before cover and any final changes are agreed upon.
 
this is what it sounds like to me?? designer and homeowner are related! designer isn't getting payed for the job! designer wants you to handle it! i would send the homeowner a short letter, and copy the designer of what you are up against, and that you intend to continue the "rough out" using your best professional electrical layout for a job of this magnitude. i only did residential work for family and friends and throw the original plans away unless there were something special wanted by the homeowner. and i wire it the house as though it was my own -- never had a complaint! sounds like this house will require plenty of recessed fixtures to properly show the wood..........
 
You have to be proactive here and produce a clear scope. You can do this on a job like this by drawing a set of “shop drawings”. Basically you need to draw some electrical plans’ maybe that was not in your bid but it’s too late now so call it damage control and learn the lesson. Then ask the owner to approve your drawings in writing. If this involves an lengthy walkthrough with said shop drawings in hand then bite the bullet and do it, having a clear scope is worth it.

The approved shop drawings will be your base, if they make changes in the future you may be able to get paid for them and being able to show how it was a change in scope will help. If they complain about work that has been installed you have the approved shop drawings to fall back on.

Anything done without approved drawings of some kind, is subject to change and is hard to get paid for.

As a bonus when the job is over, you turn over a copy of your shop drawings as as-builts and you look like a pro.

Good luck.
 
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