How would you rule NMB mix match

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wbalsam1

wbalsam1

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Upper Jay, NY
Just inspected a 1 family dwelling rough-in this morning and thought I'd drop this one out there to field comments on.

All circuits other than bath, laundry and kitchen SABC's originated in the main panel with #12/2 NMB and when they got to the first switch banks, or other outlets, switched to 14/2 NMB. "Electrician" intended to protect at 20 amps. When I asked him for his reasoning to put this 14/2 out at the ends of all these circuits, his answer was to save money. Didn't think he was doing anything wrong.
If you were an inspector, how would you rule?:confused:

I'll disclose my ruling later on in this thread. :smile:
 
I would tell him that he could not protect these circuits higher than 15 amp OCPD's, problem solved and code compliant.

I would then educate this installer as to why he was wrong in his original game plan.

Roger
 
Jhaney said:
he should take a look at 240.4 D
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Lots of inspectors use this 240.4(D) to try to effect a "C change" in wiring habits, but many electricians successfully argue their way out of this by providing the proper overcurrent for the smallest conductor in the circuit.

They cite cases where voltage drop is an issue and wire size is allowed to be increased and a host of other excuses that do not apply to the subject at hand, ad naseum, and when the wiring methods of these electricians prevails and the 12 gauge wire stays on the 15 ampere breaker, the lasting argument is that the next electrician to work on the circuit is expected to examine the entire circuit at all access points to determine proper ampacities rather than assume and accidently provide excessive overcurrent protection.This of course is a departure from the everyday reality that exists in at least my area. A simple tag left in the panel cautioning that there is a reduction in wire size farther down the circuit takes care of the problem and I've never had an electrician object to this, but there are those on this forum who object adamantly. They have that right and their points are well taken.

Delighted with the fact that he was not violating the code and remained untouchable by me, (the inspector of record), I had an electrician revel in a self-righteous rant about me even bringing up the issue. He changed inspectors right in the middle of the job for this one reason alone. That was years ago, and I must admit I do not miss him, nor him me, I'm sure.

In the meantime, back at the ranch at NFPA, I'm not sure that anything is being done to address this. It may be a non-issue that I am blowing out of proportion. Done that before, too. :smile:

Roger said at post # 2, "code compliant", but then said "educate the guy", so it's easy to see the spread on this issue.
 
I really think that we are talking 'design issue' here.

IMHO adding this tag at the beginning of any circuit that uses different size conductors _might_ help prevent a problem. IMHO adding this tag doesn't hurt anything.

But the problem that this tag is supposed to prevent (overfusing a circuit that has different size conductors) is one that a competent electrician could avoid, without any sort of tag. IMHO this sort of tag really shouldn't be necessary.

I don't see an absolute argument one direction or the other; yes IMHO this sort of tag will improve safety, but IMHO the safety improvement will be very very small. To make an example of a form of conductor tagging that is accepted as necessary: clearly a 'competent' electrician should be able to figure out which conductor does what task, so that color coding of conductor insulation is redundant.

You could take this further; rather than adding a little tag to some circuits, why not require a complete electrical system schematic be stored with the panel? A proper 'as built' would certainly help future electricians do a safe and compliant job. In fact, you could make this part of the value that you add as part of an inspection service; as part of inspecting all of the circuits, you could _create_ the 'as built' document, and then place it in an envelope by the panel.

But at some point you simply have to say 'the cost of this _improvement_ versus the benefit provided does not support making this improvement a requirement.'

I applaud you and your employer for making this small design feature a service that you add for your customers. But I can't see making this design feature a requirement for electricians.

-Jon
 
winnie said:
..........I don't see an absolute argument one direction or the other; yes IMHO this sort of tag will improve safety, but IMHO the safety improvement will be very very small. To make an example of a form of conductor tagging that is accepted as necessary: clearly a 'competent' electrician should be able to figure out which conductor does what task, so that color coding of conductor insulation is redundant. ...........
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In the changes from the '99 to the 02' NEC "tagging" took on a lot more importance. I realize it has to do with abandoned cables, but there is still a relevance here. See '02 Art. 725.2; 725.3(B); 760.2; 760.3(A); 770.3(A); 820.3(A); and 830.3(A).



winnie said:
I applaud you and your employer for making this small design feature a service that you add for your customers. But I can't see making this design feature a requirement for electricians.

-Jon
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Thank you for your post.
 
Sorry, maybe I'm missing something or reading to fast.

In your OP you said that he intended to protect it with a 20 amp breaker, in which case I would agree with Roger.

In the next post you say that he is delighted because he was not violating the code and was untouchable by you.

I would agree that if he installs a 15 amp breaker then there's not much you can do (as I've been reminded over and over here, you can't inspect for the future).

If he was trying to save money why didn't he just run #14 all the way. I've wired many a custom home and never had a voltage drop problem.
 
cowboyjwc said:
Sorry, maybe I'm missing something or reading to fast.

In your OP you said that he intended to protect it with a 20 amp breaker, in which case I would agree with Roger.

In the next post you say that he is delighted because he was not violating the code and was untouchable by you.

I would agree that if he installs a 15 amp breaker then there's not much you can do (as I've been reminded over and over here, you can't inspect for the future).

If he was trying to save money why didn't he just run #14 all the way. I've wired many a custom home and never had a voltage drop problem.
Click to expand...

How did he think he was saving money? You pull 10 home runs with #14 or #12 its going to take the same amount of time but 10 runs of #14 is a lot cheaper than #12:confused: :confused:
 
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cowboyjwc said:
Sorry, maybe I'm missing something or reading to fast.

In your OP you said that he intended to protect it with a 20 amp breaker, in which case I would agree with Roger.

In the next post you say that he is delighted because he was not violating the code and was untouchable by you.

I would agree that if he installs a 15 amp breaker then there's not much you can do (as I've been reminded over and over here, you can't inspect for the future).

If he was trying to save money why didn't he just run #14 all the way. I've wired many a custom home and never had a voltage drop problem.
Click to expand...

The electrician that was delighted he hadn't broken the code was not the same fellow I met this morning. He was a fellow from my far distant past. This morning's guy "intended" -when he would tie the panel in- to use 20 amp breakers on the #14 ga. wire. I advised him against that.

I did tell him that he could have saved money by switching to 14 ga on a lot of his circuits....I went over that in detail.
 
cowboyjwc said:
Sorry, maybe I'm missing something or reading to fast.

In your OP you said that he intended to protect it with a 20 amp breaker, in which case I would agree with Roger.

In the next post you say that he is delighted because he was not violating the code and was untouchable by you.

I would agree that if he installs a 15 amp breaker then there's not much you can do (as I've been reminded over and over here, you can't inspect for the future).

If he was trying to save money why didn't he just run #14 all the way. I've wired many a custom home and never had a voltage drop problem.
Click to expand...

ceb58 said:
How did he think he was saving money? You pull 10 home runs with #14 or #12 its going to take the same amount of time but 10 runs of #14 is a lot cheaper than #12:confused: :confused:
Click to expand...
He told me that 14 wire was a lot less per roll than 12. :smile:
 
I worked in the field for many years. I performed many service change outs. I am not sure how others perform service changes, but I do not go through the building to see if the changed over on wire sizing. I tag the conductors as they are labeled and then I go an size the circuit breaker according to the size of the conductor. If there was/is a 15 amp breaker on any size conductor other than a 14AWG, I make note of that.
How would anyone know that a 12AWG in the panel was switched out somewhere in the building to a 14AWG????


We all know that tagging/identifying for that purpose is not required.
But Professionalism and Pride usually go hand in hand with providing more than just code compliant work.
 
wbalsam1 said:
Roger said at post # 2, "code compliant", but then said "educate the guy", so it's easy to see the spread on this issue.
Click to expand...

When that "guy" already knows everything, it is impossible to educate him because he has nothing to learn. He is what some people are self-proclaimed to be - an expert! To me a self-proclaimed expert has only admitted that he/she will not accept change.
 
wbalsam1 said:
The electrician that was delighted he hadn't broken the code was not the same fellow I met this morning. He was a fellow from my far distant past. This morning's guy "intended" -when he would tie the panel in- to use 20 amp breakers on the #14 ga. wire. I advised him against that.

I did tell him that he could have saved money by switching to 14 ga on a lot of his circuits....I went over that in detail.
Click to expand...
Got it.:smile:

ceb58 said:
How did he think he was saving money? You pull 10 home runs with #14 or #12 its going to take the same amount of time but 10 runs of #14 is a lot cheaper than #12:confused: :confused:
Click to expand...

I didn't say that, the electrician said that. Yes same amount of time, but cheaper material.
 
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