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HVAC and SCCR requirements

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jim dungar

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Wisconsin
Occupation
PE (Retired) - Power Systems
where does the 18 KAIC value come from?
Thank you for noticing.
It was supposed to be a made up number. I must have made a typo during my editing.

It should have read...say you have a main distribution panel source with an available current of 17kA and a total motor contribution of 1.8kA. Your main device and the motor feed would need to be rated 18kAIC, but all of the branch devices would need to be 22kAIC (using typical breaker ratings).
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
Occupation
EC
There is no control panel here and the units are 480V. I run a power circuit from a 480V, 65kA rated motor control center breaker directly to the HVAC disconnect and the from disconnect to HVAC power terminals. Was wanting to replace disconnect with current limiting fuses.
Does the unit have a motor contactor or electronic drive within to control the motor(s)? That is the control panel portion of it if it does.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
Occupation
EC
I was in a bind one time where a big chiller only had 5kA SCCR. I was able to show the manufacturer that if the upstream impedance was high enough to keep the AFC below 5kA, then it would be too high to allow the machine to operate within voltage tolerances.

They upgraded it to 65kA for no charge.
If the upstream impedance is enough to keep the AFC below 5kA there is no need to "upgrade" any rating. The AFC is under 5kA.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
Occupation
EC
I am currently working on a Power Distribution Center (PDC); these PDCs are large power houses where utility comes in and is distribution throughout a plant using switchgear and MCC. The ratings of this equipment (power panels, switchgear, MCC, VFDs) are 480V and 65kA interrupting. The HVAC units on this PDC however are rated at only 5kA which I see as a routine rating since HVAC is not normally subject to SCCR testing. We usually put current limiting fuses ahead of the HVAC to satisfy this disparity but I have not seen anything official that allows me to do that. Of course now I have a customer questioning the validity of this practice.

Has anyone else here had this issue and have you been able to satisfy the customers concerns?
Did you calculate the AFC at the HVAC unit? You later mentioned 5 ton units. @ 480 volts that unit could possibly be supplied with 14 AWG, impedance of that conductor likely puts the AFC at the unit well below 65kA and unless immediately adjacent to the main gear likely will still be under 5kA.

Also your 65kA gear means there is less than 65kA available, supposedly. Since next typical lower rating is 42kA it may mean there is at least 42kA available though.

What I am saying is just because the main gear is rated 65kA doesn't mean 65kA is what is available at that gear or even more so at every point in the facility.
 

JoeStillman

Senior Member
Location
West Chester, PA
If the upstream impedance is enough to keep the AFC below 5kA there is no need to "upgrade" any rating. The AFC is under 5kA.
Right, but we tried calculating the size of reactors to put upstream to knock it down to 5k and found that the reactors would also cause too much voltage drop.
 

jim dungar

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Wisconsin
Occupation
PE (Retired) - Power Systems
Right, but we tried calculating the size of reactors to put upstream to knock it down to 5k and found that the reactors would also cause too much voltage drop.
Which is why you rarely find reactors in the real world, except for some dedicated loads.
 

Jraef

Moderator, OTD
Staff member
Location
San Francisco Bay Area, CA, USA
Occupation
Electrical Engineer
Which is why you rarely find reactors in the real world, except for some dedicated loads.
Air core reactors are used often at the transmission and distribution level by utilities, but yes, it is very uncommon for them to be used at the user level. I tried once, it was a major endeavor to try to get a quote, because I was not a utility. The suppliers were totally disinterested.
 

JoeStillman

Senior Member
Location
West Chester, PA
Air core reactors are used often at the transmission and distribution level by utilities, but yes, it is very uncommon for them to be used at the user level. I tried once, it was a major endeavor to try to get a quote, because I was not a utility. The suppliers were totally disinterested.
We see them upstream of VFD's a lot.
 

Jraef

Moderator, OTD
Staff member
Location
San Francisco Bay Area, CA, USA
Occupation
Electrical Engineer
We see them upstream of VFD's a lot.
Those wouldn't be air core reactors, and reactors on VFDs are for different purposes than fault current reduction (notwithstanding Bob's posting about having encountered that). A drive mfr. can easily attain a 100kA listing just using current limiting fuses with most VFDs.

These are air core reactors by the way...
345-kV-Current-Limiting-Reactor-201x300.jpg
 

petersonra

Senior Member
Location
Northern illinois
Occupation
engineer
Those wouldn't be air core reactors, and reactors on VFDs are for different purposes than fault current reduction (notwithstanding Bob's posting about having encountered that). A drive mfr. can easily attain a 100kA listing just using current limiting fuses with most VFDs.

And the case I was referring to it was a long time ago and an oddball brand of VFD. I have not run across such a requirement since that I can recall.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
Occupation
EC
Right, but we tried calculating the size of reactors to put upstream to knock it down to 5k and found that the reactors would also cause too much voltage drop.
Branch circuits and feeder conductors have impedance as well. Just because one has 65kA rated main gear doesn't mean there is 65kA available everywhere in the facility. As you progress through feeders, possibly separately derived systems, and eventually through the final branch circuit you may have a lot less available at equipment supplied by conductors that are small when compared to the service capacity.

To begin with having 65kA main gear might be because there is 50kA available at the service and next lower rating is say 42kA. If so your calculations for feeders and branches starts out at 50 and not 65.
 

topgone

Senior Member
Right, but we tried calculating the size of reactors to put upstream to knock it down to 5k and found that the reactors would also cause too much voltage drop.
Voltage drop depends on the load current on a specific conductor and its length. You haven't posted the load of your install and if our initial calculations tell us you needed a reactor with an inductance of 66 uH, that would be a 3% VD for a load of 360A and a run of 120 feet, 2/0 conductor. The resulting short-circuit kA will be 4.8 kA. 465V at the load terminal is good, I think.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
Occupation
EC
Voltage drop depends on the load current on a specific conductor and its length. You haven't posted the load of your install and if our initial calculations tell us you needed a reactor with an inductance of 66 uH, that would be a 3% VD for a load of 360A and a run of 120 feet, 2/0 conductor. The resulting short-circuit kA will be 4.8 kA. 465V at the load terminal is good, I think.
Kind of a small conductor for 360A @ 75C ampacity rating isn't it?
 

JoeStillman

Senior Member
Location
West Chester, PA
Voltage drop depends on the load current on a specific conductor and its length. You haven't posted the load of your install and if our initial calculations tell us you needed a reactor with an inductance of 66 uH, that would be a 3% VD for a load of 360A and a run of 120 feet, 2/0 conductor. The resulting short-circuit kA will be 4.8 kA. 465V at the load terminal is good, I think.
It would be good, if the starting voltage is 480V. But the utility is allowed to go as low as 90% of nominal.
 

topgone

Senior Member
It would be good, if the starting voltage is 480V. But the utility is allowed to go as low as 90% of nominal.
It would be nice discussing this problem as I have faced this problem once. My solution was just installing a line reactor to drop the fault levels down below the equipment withstand capacity. But it looks to me the OP just left after throwing the problem in.
 
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