Hydroculators GFI protection of not?

[brother]

as someone said time for SUPER MEGGER. But i am curious since its just 'this' receptacle thats doing it,you said you checked wiring, (voltage and amps under load and ALL theconnections are TIGHT as well ALL the way back to the PANEL and every junction box feeding this gfci?? Since you said the appliance was checked out and nothing was found and you changed the gfci. I had a gfci that kept tripping when a neutral was loose and it as shared by the fridge. The problem was a loose connection. It was in PARRELLED on the LINE side not the LOAD side . When I tightened the connection up (loose neutral) on the gfci it worked fine. It only tripped when the commpressor on the fridge kicked on. Somehow it was seeing a fluctuation or an arc on the LINE side and it did not like that.

Nothing is touching at all ?? Not even the ground and neutral touching when you put that that gfci receptacle back in the box right? some times those boxes get crowded. I assume these gfci is the SAME brand in the other rooms?? their not an older version that may be less sensitive and are they on the same circuit? Also have the good Doctor or his staff actually see it trip??

It does sound like a voltage leak though IMO. but we shall see.

 

[Pierre C Belarge]

So, what do you do when the code requires it? For example, a hydromassage bathtub or a swimming pool? These loads seem to work fine on GFCI-protected circuits...

Also how about all the motorized handtools on jobsites?

 

[Pierre C Belarge]

Start with 50 to see how that hashes out. Often, they fail right then and there at that voltage. 500 is what I use otherwise.

So far, every "nuisance tripping" fridge or freezer has failed a megger test. There is genuine leakage. I do have an actual leakage tester made by Slater that will measure the leakage in milliamps, which I have used alternately either before or after the megger test. Both tests always agree. The leakage test normally shows a measurement approaching the trip threashold, which is good enough for me to conclude that it occasionally jumps up a hair. The megger stress test proves it conclusively.

Marc
Once you do find that the fridge is tripping due to leakage current, and it is tripping a GFCI, how do you handle the customer.
Scenario:
Customer; "Oh, it does not trip if I take the GFCI out, why not just remove the GFCI, the fridge works fine"

Do you tell them the fridge is likely carrying current on the metallic parts? Do you ask them to sign a waiver that you write explaining the situation, if they do not want to replace the fridge?

I am just curious how others handle a situation like this...so these questions is not just for Marc.

 

[electricguy61]

aha. they find it tripped in the morning. does the cleaning lady come in every night and plug her vacuum into this outlet ?

Are we ignoring this post? I don't know if it was made in jest, but it is a very likely explanation.

 

[cowboyjwc]

aha. they find it tripped in the morning. does the cleaning lady come in every night and plug her vacuum into this outlet ?

Actually that was my exact thought when I said that I don't think he's getting the whole story.

 

[Patb]

Wow your feedback is amazing. I have been reading this forum for years but never asked a question. lesson learned, ask the question you guys are great.

ok, let me make sure I answer each of yours.

No they are not using the outlet for anything else, even the cleaning crew. This outlet is actually in a closet where the washer and dryer are located.

The circuit is brand new. New seimens bolt on breaker, new 12/2 MC run, no splices, new GFI. checked out with my tester when done all ok. Called the office back 2-3 three weeks later to see how it was going and that weekend it tripped.

Not sure putting it on a contactor setup is worth it. The therapy place is open late at night and they open early. It has about 20 gallons of water in it so it most likely takes a long time to reheat and they need those hot towel wraps early in the morning.

This is the same GFI I installed in a different office and it has not happened there with the hydroculator.

They asked me the same question to take out the GFI and just put in a standard outlet. I have to say no to accepting that responsibility considering the application of the appliance. too risky. I am thinking about the GFI bkr with a reg outlet. while I am there I will try the test you are referring to above. I just have to figure out where I can rent one.

I will give the results back here for others to learn from.

 

[cowboyjwc]

Wow your feedback is amazing. I have been reading this forum for years but never asked a question. lesson learned, ask the question you guys are great.

ok, let me make sure I answer each of yours.

No they are not using the outlet for anything else, even the cleaning crew. This outlet is actually in a closet where the washer and dryer are located.

The circuit is brand new. New seimens bolt on breaker, new 12/2 MC run, no splices, new GFI. checked out with my tester when done all ok. Called the office back 2-3 three weeks later to see how it was going and that weekend it tripped.

Not sure putting it on a contactor setup is worth it. The therapy place is open late at night and they open early. It has about 20 gallons of water in it so it most likely takes a long time to reheat and they need those hot towel wraps early in the morning.

This is the same GFI I installed in a different office and it has not happened there with the hydroculator.

They asked me the same question to take out the GFI and just put in a standard outlet. I have to say no to accepting that responsibility considering the application of the appliance. too risky. I am thinking about the GFI bkr with a reg outlet. while I am there I will try the test you are referring to above. I just have to figure out where I can rent one.

I will give the results back here for others to learn from.

Well, looks like you've covered most of it, so then my next guess is, it's the boggie man.:grin:

 

[Patb]

Yes, me too. I am beginning to think the boogie man is doing his laundry after hours and plugging in his iron into the GFI. There isn't to many problems I couldn't eventually figure out but this one is baffling me.

Does 517.20 exception B mean if I independantly ground the housing of the hydrolualtor the GFI requirement is negated? Not that I am intending on doing this but one of the early posts made me get up last night and re-read 517

 

[jim dungar]

Is the equipment connected to the buildings plumbing system, or is it simply a standalone "tub" of water?

GFCI's are required not simply because there is water present, otherwise all rug shampooers(sp?), floor polishers, and room humidifiers should also require GFCI protected outlets. I don't believe GFCI's are required for in-line water heaters or even the small plug connected ones.

 

[cowboyjwc]

Is the equipment connected to the buildings plumbing system, or is it simply a standalone "tub" of water?

GFCI's are required not simply because there is water present, otherwise all rug shampooers(sp?), floor polishers, and room humidifiers should also require GFCI protected outlets. I don't believe GFCI's are required for in-line water heaters or even the small plug connected ones.

I have to agree with Jim on this. Not that GFCI isn't a good idea and if it's tripping there is probably something wrong that should be addressed.

I know there's a "but..." in there somewhere, though that would probably start a whole other discussion.

From what Pat had described, I tend to believe that it's not the piece of equipment that is at fault and would probably eliminate that as a cause.

 

[brother]

Does anyone know if the original poster ever found out what the problem was that kept causeing the gfci to trip?? I would love to know the answer in case i run into it in the field.

 

[IK77]

None

None

I think , if You put larger multiamp into GFCI trip level it would solve the problem. Thanks

 

[Patb]

Sorry guys I called the Dr back after all your input and haven't heard back from him yet. I promise to post the outcome. I think he went to warmer climate.

 

[brother]

Sorry guys I called the Dr back after all your input and haven't heard back from him yet. I promise to post the outcome. I think he went to warmer climate.

so is he back from vacation yet???

 

[Lxnxjxhx]

Day/night room temp variations causing the unit to have internal intermittent leakage current, due to mechanical expansion/contraction inside the unit?

 

[Lxnxjxhx]

I think this messy problem can serve as a template for troubleshooting in general.

Possible causes, from your own replies and my experience.

GFI,
cable,
load,
connections,
redundant grounds,
an intermittent or permanent short to somewhere else,
faulty testing giving misleading answers,
conditions that change with time,
"externals"-
externals are moisture,
external power quality,
external temperature change,
external other machines,
external and the bogeyman or cleaning lady or persons unknown.

-Whatever is the cause of this problem, it must be contained within these categories, and one or more of these categories are to blame, unless some category has been left out.
Some components may have internal faults from age or abuse, others have faults induced by externals.
Some components individually work but don't play well with others, maybe because of a tolerance buildup or unforeseen interactions.
Loads are active (containing electronics) or not, and store energy or not. Loads that are active and/or with energy storage can interact with other components in strange ways.
-A cable has no electronics and minimal energy storage in its capacitance, so it is passive. May have leakage or not, due to age or abuse.
-A GFI has electronics and no energy storage. It's not really a load but its purpose is to interact with loads. I'd say active.
-The Hydro thing is hard to classify. I hope it's passive, but it wouldn't hurt to ask the manufacturer or look inside.
-Combining all these gives many permutations, some of which can be immediately eliminated as unlikely or have already been tried. More than two bad components at the same time is unlikely and unlucky.
-If we list all the possibilities and eliminate the unlikely ones, I hope we're left with something. Otherwise the likelihood judgement needs fixing.

So, here are your clues; my take is preceded by X.

a-they said nothing is wrong with the unit X-they may only check for what is important to them.
b-new breaker and GFI outlet. didn't work X-so GFI by itself works. May still interact with other components because they are bad or a tolerance buildup.
c-swap one of the other office units with this one. The new hydroculator tripped the outlet again. X-Confirms a. and points to other than the unit.
d-no splashing X- one external eliminated.
e-There are multiple other GFI's in this Dr office but none of them have a problem. X- unit is unlikely cause because of c.
f-redundent grounding? X-How to check this? Milliohmmeter? But first model the circuit to see if a redundant ground can possibly trip a GFI that senses differentials. I don't see how.
g-There is a possibility that the unit itself has some leakage current. X-Check it yourself but it is unlikely from c.
h-maybe the heat from usuage adds to the issue. X-Unlikely from c.
i- Yes we had considered a leak within the unit and I asked the Dr to have the service Co. check it. The tech most likely did not have that ability. I also don't have the equipment that could check for this. X-Check it yourself but it is unlikely from c.
j-usually find it tripped in the morning when they return to work. So is the heat generated overnight a contributing factor? Probably but why doesn't this happen in the other offices with the same machines? X-External.
k-aha. they find it tripped in the morning. does the cleaning lady come in every night and plug her vacuum into this outlet ? X-External.
m-No they are not using the outlet for anything else, even the cleaning crew. This outlet is actually in a closet where the washer and dryer are located. X-Implies not an external.
n-The circuit is brand new. New seimens bolt on breaker, new 12/2 MC run, no splices, new GFI. checked out with my tester when done all ok. Called the office back 2-3 three weeks later to see how it was going and that weekend it tripped. X-This leaves almost no possibilities, which means something has been left out of the list at the top or that you are assuming something that is not true. You might also be too close to the problem and should run it by a disinterested party who sees it in person. I live outside of DC!
q-This is the same GFI I installed in a different office and it has not happened there with the hydroculator. X- So, not the GFI. See n.


I hope this helps. Maybe there really is a bogeyman.

 

[Lxnxjxhx]

UL Info from a link to a user's manual in another post

UL Info from a link to a user's manual in another post

UL guidelines for GFI trip current vs. time is T = (20/I)^(1.43), where I is in mA and T in seconds.

So, I = 20/(T^[0.7]): 1 amp of leakage current trips in 4 milliSeconds, 100 mA trips in 100 mS, 20 mA trips in 1 second, 1.1 mA trips in one minute and 65 uA trips in one hour.

Beyond these values the formula probably become useless, but this might give a clue as to what kind of leakage current you are looking for.

I'd think there is some low level of current for which the GFI never trips, e.g., the current due to the capacitive reactance of 100 or so feet of Romex.

Also, a few milliseconds is probably the fastest that the relay inside the GFI can respond, regardless of the leakage current.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

So, I = 20/(T^[0.7]): 1 amp of leakage current trips in 4 milliSeconds, 100 mA trips in 100 mS, 20 mA trips in 1 second, 1.1 mA trips in one minute and 65 uA trips in one hour.

The UL standard does not permit the GFCI to trip below 4mA no matter how long the current flows.

 

[Lxnxjxhx]

trip below 4mA

trip below 4mA

So if the GFI doesn't trip within 10 seconds or less, it's not going to trip at all, due to leakage.

It seems that the hydro thing or its supply has a fault occurring within 10 seconds before the GFI trips, whenever that is and whatever event caused it.
If it happens often enough I'd put an analog clock on the line to see if it happens at the same time each day. . .?

 

[K8MHZ]

Counterfeit Chinese GFCI perhaps?

It would take little time and effort to swap the GFCI with a new one purchased from a supply house that sells brand name outlets.

GFCI's are devices and like any device can be defective from day one.

I, too, am interested in what you find once the problem is solved.