Hydromassage Tub

[Dennis Alwon]

I get the feeling some people think the GFCI needs to be within site or in same room as the tub.

Readily accessible and within site are two different things. If the branch circuit breaker is GFCI type that should be acceptable location for the GFCI. 240.24(A) says overcurrent devices shall be readily accessible.

No but it is cheaper to use a dead front then a gfci breaker so one usually locates it in the same room as the tub.

 

[kwired]

No but it is cheaper to use a dead front then a gfci breaker so one usually locates it in the same room as the tub.

I realize that. It doesn't need to be in same room, although it creates less confusion for user to put it in same room or at least some logical place near the tub.

 

[Gac66610]

We use to use the "dead front" GFCI protection but in some bathrooms there is no room for them
we also received a ton of complaints about their appearance, so builders asked that we stop using them.
We told them how much that breaker price would differ, they didn't seem to mind.

240.24(a) is for overcurrent, not ground fault. (not saying, just saying)

 

[Dennis Alwon]

We use to use the "dead front" GFCI protection but in some bathrooms there is no room for them
we also received a ton of complaints about their appearance, so builders asked that we stop using them.
We told them how much that breaker price would differ, they didn't seem to mind.

Interesting, I have done many multi million dollar homes and have never heard a complaint about it. We usually place it above the switches at the door where you enter the bathroom.

 

[svh19044]

Interesting, I have done many multi million dollar homes and have never heard a complaint about it. We usually place it above the switches at the door where you enter the bathroom.

I do the same nice work and I can't think of a single time where the designer wanted a blank face gfci.

I like the gfci breaker for two other reasons, one being that you don't have a device which the homeowner doesn't know what or why it's there to begin with, and two, if the gfci trips on one of these tubs I'd rather a homeowner not crawl to the gfci and reset. IMO, it warrants a closer look in to.

Besides, the floor heat t-stat or volume control goes above the switches .

As far as price difference is concerned, it's quicker with the breaker and slightly less material. It's a wash.

 

[hurk27]

I find it hard to believe that some say there is no room to locate a blank face GFCI somewhere in the bathroom? do some have the thinking that it is against code to locate it near the tub?

A hydro massage tub is not a pool or hot tub, it is just a tub that has a pump, the same rules apply to it that apply to a standard tub or shower with just a couple other things thrown in like bonding, it just can not be located within the tub space which is the same requirement of a standard tub.

We are only required to follow Part VII of 680 which is 680.70 through 680.74 the rest of 680 does not apply as it clearly states in 680.70, 680 72 will direct you to follow the requirements of Chapters 1 through 4 in covering
the installation of equipment in bathrooms and that is all there is to it.

680.71 only requires that if a receptacle is within 6' it has to be GFCI protected, which 210.8 with require any receptacle in a bathroom to be GFCI protected, but the NEC had to cover where these tubs might be located in other locations like I have seen them in bedrooms kind of like a poor mans hot tub.

As Dennis has pointed out it is about half the cost using a blank face GFCI then using a breaker and you give the customer the convince of having it in the same location which is how I like to install all GFCI's, another point is they are UL listed as switch rated for motor loads and home owners can use them to keep the kids from playing with the air switch in the tub if they don't want the kids to us it, I rarely use GFCI breakers anymore, and I do not like to down load receptacles off a GFCI that are in other rooms even when they are fed by the same circuit, as I do not like service calls of a receptacle not working just to find it was fed by a GFCI receptacle located in another room, kind of an awkward position of charging the home owner for resetting it. at least if I didn't do the install I can offer the homeowner the choice of redoing it so it doesn't happen again. nothing like searching for a GFCI somewhere in the circuit then dealing with the home owner as to why I had to charge 2 or 3 hours service call to find it and reset it.

I like Dennis thinking on this.

 

[hurk27]

We use to use the "dead front" GFCI protection but in some bathrooms there is no room for them
we also received a ton of complaints about their appearance, so builders asked that we stop using them.
We told them how much that breaker price would differ, they didn't seem to mind.

240.24(a) is for overcurrent, not ground fault. (not saying, just saying)

I have yet to have a complaint on using one, but in layout I always consult with the home owner as to where they would like it and maybe that is why as they are the ones who pick out the place to put it as long as it is a code compliant location.

 

[svh19044]

......

 

[svh19044]

I find it hard to believe that some say there is no room to locate a blank face GFCI somewhere in the bathroom? do some have the thinking that it is against code to locate it near the tub?

A hydro massage tub is not a pool or hot tub, it is just a tub that has a pump, the same rules apply to it that apply to a standard tub or shower with just a couple other things thrown in like bonding, it just can not be located within the tub space which is the same requirement of a standard tub.

We are only required to follow Part VII of 680 which is 680.70 through 680.74 the rest of 680 does not apply as it clearly states in 680.70, 680 72 will direct you to follow the requirements of Chapters 1 through 4 in covering
the installation of equipment in bathrooms and that is all there is to it.

680.71 only requires that if a receptacle is within 6' it has to be GFCI protected, which 210.8 with require any receptacle in a bathroom to be GFCI protected, but the NEC had to cover where these tubs might be located in other locations like I have seen them in bedrooms kind of like a poor mans hot tub.

As Dennis has pointed out it is about half the cost using a blank face GFCI then using a breaker and you give the customer the convince of having it in the same location which is how I like to install all GFCI's, another point is they are UL listed as switch rated for motor loads and home owners can use them to keep the kids from playing with the air switch in the tub if they don't want the kids to us it, I rarely use GFCI breakers anymore, and I do not like to down load receptacles off a GFCI that are in other rooms even when they are fed by the same circuit, as I do not like service calls of a receptacle not working just to find it was fed by a GFCI receptacle located in another room, kind of an awkward position of charging the home owner for resetting it. at least if I didn't do the install I can offer the homeowner the choice of redoing it so it doesn't happen again. nothing like searching for a GFCI somewhere in the circuit then dealing with the home owner as to why I had to charge 2 or 3 hours service call to find it and reset it.

I like Dennis thinking on this.

I used to believe that gfci breakers were an inconvenience, but now that nearly all circuits require afci protection (breakers with more common nuisance tripping whether we admit it or not), and more customers are going with plug mold in the kitchen (gfci breakers), it's no longer "more" convenient to keep the gfci reset in said location. Just a different perspective on it.

I do agree about load side protection for other areas though where a gfci receptacle is the protection device.

 

[hurk27]

I used to believe that gfci breakers were an inconvenience, but now that nearly all circuits require afci protection (breakers with more common nuisance tripping whether we admit it or not), and more customers are going with plug mold in the kitchen (gfci breakers), it's no longer "more" convenient to keep the gfci reset in said location. Just a different perspective on it.

I do agree about load side protection for other areas though where a gfci receptacle is the protection device.

Oh I agree that in design choices there are cases where we would use breakers, but we do have options and we can make choices that can benefit the home owner if we chose right, luckily in Indiana 210.12 was removed and we don't use AFCI's not that I'm against AFCI's if they functioned like the manufactures stated, but they don't and that is why they are not required here.

 

[Gac66610]

Interesting, I have done many multi million dollar homes and have never heard a complaint about it. We usually place it above the switches at the door where you enter the bathroom.

Most people that don't have as much money seem to, at times, be the worst complainers.

Yes sometimes its hard to find a place to put the dead front, when you have a small bathroom to begin with
two doors entering, counter top just inside one door with a built in linen cabinet with another door next to a tub
with about 6 to 8 inches between doors and they have to have the four inch wide trim.

but this is Kansas we've only had electricity a few years, just now grasping its full potential:lol:

 

[kwired]

We use to use the "dead front" GFCI protection but in some bathrooms there is no room for them
we also received a ton of complaints about their appearance, so builders asked that we stop using them.
We told them how much that breaker price would differ, they didn't seem to mind.

240.24(a) is for overcurrent, not ground fault. (not saying, just saying)

I find it hard to believe there is no room at all. 240.24 is for overcurrent but if the device is a GFCI breaker and meets 240.24 then it is also readily accessible to meet 680.71.

I do the same nice work and I can't think of a single time where the designer wanted a blank face gfci.