I am angry and I need to rant

[peter d]

I have just finished a working in an area where inspectors operate with impunity, and I am glad to be getting out of there soon.

I have ranted about this in the past in one of the many "fan box" threads, but it goes much beyond that.

In this place, inspectors make up their own rules, contractors follow them, and they are rarely challenged. If you do try to challenge them, they will use "the system" to make your life miserable.

Some notables:

They require all kitchen recpetacles, not just the counter, to be GFCI protected.

They make you rip out all exsisting romex above suspended ceilings even if you are only adding a few new circuits.

They make you put in fan boxes even where no fan will be installed.

They make you repair other code violations not related to the job you are doing. For instance, even if all you are doing is a service change, they will make you repair any violations that are visible in the basement.

They make you run a ground wire in EMT and other metallic raceways.

They make you install "Firomatic" devices above gas burners even though the code only requires them for oil burners.

There are others but I can't think of them at the moment.

Nice, isn't it???

 

[physis]

Re: I am angry and I need to rant

So the average $500 job costs what? $3500?

I wonder if there's any work being done without permits.

 

[bphgravity]

Re: I am angry and I need to rant

This issue just reinforces my advice that contractors need to get to know their inspectors when working in a new area or when just starting out.

When I first obtained my contractors license, the first thing I did was introduce myself to the local electrical contrators. This showed the inspectors that not only did I respect them, but I would demand their respect in return. I never have had a single issue arise. Whenever a problem came up, the inspectors knew I could be reached and would be willing to discuss the situation with them. In almost all cases, the inspectors, even the difficult ones, would be willing to work the issue out.

You need to go to local IAEI meetings and you need to discuss problems you are having with jurisdictions at these meetings. Many times, an issue would come up that one jurisdiction were dead-set on but changed their mines once they heard the arguments and interpretations of other inspectors from other communities. I was able to get alot of issues settled in this manner.

You will never win a battle with an inspector in thre field on their ground. You need to bring the issues to them when the matter is not pressing and egos and emotions are not involved.

Most inspectors get into the business of inspecting becasue they want to see the development of their community in the safest manner and most have the greatest of intentions. Bitterness and attitude are straits of even the best inspectors. The trick is to get pass the personal differences and work out the issues as professionals.

 

[stud696981]

Re: I am angry and I need to rant

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In this place, inspectors make up their own rules, contractors follow them, and they are rarely challenged. If you do try to challenge them, they will use "the system" to make your life miserable.
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Peter, this is one of my biggest gripes when inspectors make up their own personal rules and other contractors just give into them. I make it a habit to find out what other codes the cities have on the books besides the NEC and I follow them. I always treat inspectors with respect, but I have no problem standing my ground when they are wrong and I'm right.

 

[ryan_618]

Re: I am angry and I need to rant

Even as an inspector myself, it is one of my biggest gripes as well. It gives all of us a bad name when an inspector thinks he/she can make up the rules as they go.

I know of a (very) few inspectors in my state that have this mentality. I have had them in some of my seminars, and they always want to talk about 90.4. After explaining to them what 90.4 really means, and that they are totally wrong, and that if I were installing I would turn them in, they decided not to go to my classes anymore. It is unfortunate, but I think many of these cowboys will never stop until they are turned in, sued or fired.

 

[hurk27]

Re: I am angry and I need to rant

This is where someone needs to go to the press and let the public know what their government is costing them for simple repair jobs and even new construction. If enough of the public will write there congress men/women and complain it will be resolved. as nobody likes complaints. But you must give the ammo they need to go after these inspectors and building departments. They are not making electrical installations any safer, just costing John Q. public more! and in these times where we have to make every dime count I'll bet you will get some responses.

 

[paul]

Re: I am angry and I need to rant

Now is this the inspector's own thing, or is it the local municipality requiring it? I run into cities that have their own little idiosyncrasies you just have to get to know what they are.

 

[iwire]

Re: I am angry and I need to rant

I am fairly sure I know where Peter is talking about.

If it is the area I think it is, than this...

Originally posted by bphgravity:
Most inspectors get into the business of inspecting becasue they want to see the development of their community in the safest manner and most have the greatest of intentions.

....could not be father from the truth.

The reason many of these people are inspectors is simple to collect an easy pension from the taxpayer and to do as little work as possible.

As an added bonus they get to hassle out of state contractors with impunity.

Short of having 'friends' (as in the organized Italian kind) above these inspectors you are SOL.

Pete, with the large number of politicians in this area that have been indited, convicted, jailed and many times reelected you don't really expect integrity in the building Dept's. do you?

 

[electricmanscott]

Re: I am angry and I need to rant

Originally posted by bphgravity:
This issue just reinforces my advice that contractors need to get to know their inspectors when working in a new area or when just starting out.

Sad but true. In reality it should be the inspectors getting to know the code and the proper enforcement. Here in mASS the requirements for inspectors are pretty much an electricians license and a drinking buddy in the town hall.

 

[bphgravity]

Re: I am angry and I need to rant

Originally posted by iwire:
If it is the area I think it is, than this...

Originally posted by bphgravity:
Most inspectors get into the business of inspecting becasue they want to see the development of their community in the safest manner and most have the greatest of intentions.

....could not be father from the truth.

I know my statement doesn't cover the entire gamut of space and time, and I am also sure there are several areas of this nation where corruption and abuse of power is rampant.

The issue that concerns me is the almost seemingly natural dislike of inspectors by our industry. I have seen this first hand in my apprenticeship classes. I ask first year students what they think of electrical inspectors. I cannot repeat some of the comments made without fear of fines from the FCC. I then ask them how many have ever met or spoke with an inspector. The funny thing is, none of them ever had. So where does this attitude come from?

Its passed down like tradition and the same holds true with the inspectors. I live in a small community with the typical Florida "good-ol-boy" network. Once one inspector makes a bad opinion of a contractor, it spreads magically like wild fire and suddenly no inspectors like that contractor any longer.

Its a horrible cycle that keeps repeating itself over and over.

 

[George Stolz]

Re: I am angry and I need to rant

Originally posted by ryan_618:
I know of a (very) few inspectors in my state that have this mentality. I have had them in some of my seminars, and they always want to talk about 90.4. After explaining to them what 90.4 really means, and that they are totally wrong, and that if I were installing I would turn them in, they decided not to go to my classes anymore. It is unfortunate, but I think many of these cowboys will never stop until they are turned in, sued or fired.

The problem is, 90.4 and 110.2 create this. It's their root.

What was your take on 90.4, how did you explain it?

 

[bphgravity]

Re: I am angry and I need to rant

Here in the state of Florida, 90.4 is not suppose to be the personal opinion or interpretations of the individual inspector. This is established by the building code official which is usually in conjunction with the established opinion of the Florida Building Commission. We may have 4 electrical inspectors, but there is truly only one AHJ.

The way my department views enforcement is by allowing the individual inspector to make a personal interpretation and decision if an installation is okay if it falls below the requirement of the NEC and not to require something above the code. For example, if I come across an installation where EMT is run and supported randomly at 11' instead of exactly at 10' or less, I am permitted to approve the installation if I feel it will be safe and as effective as required by the NEC. Now if I were to require the supoprt to be at 8' because that is what I would like, that would be exceeding my authority.

 

[peter d]

Re: I am angry and I need to rant

Bryan, I appreciate your comments and methodology, but it just won't work here. This area is indeed one where corruption, abuse of power, and "It's all who you know" are rampant and endemic.

Originally posted by iwire:
Pete, with the large number of politicians in this area that have been indited, convicted, jailed and many times reelected you don't really expect integrity in the building Dept's. do you?

No, I don't, unfortunately.

Paul, there are no significant local ammendements to the NEC, other than a Fire Alarm Code that has some stricter rules than the NEC, and the "Firomatic" requirment due to oil heat being very common in the region. The problem is the inspectors don't know the code, and they have ability to enforce whatever rules they want because of the political machine behind them.

Sam, there is alot of work being done without permits. I was just doing some fire alarm work in a few nightclubs, and I saw lamp cord used for permanent wiring, flying splices galore, and 100 other violations. All the fire department cared about was whether the fire alarm worked. :roll:


Ultimately, the consumer is paying for this mess.

 

[physis]

Re: I am angry and I need to rant

By Bryan:

I ask first year students what they think of electrical inspectors. I cannot repeat some of the comments made

That's an interesting point Bryan. But I don't think it comes from the industry. I think it's part of the way the society thinks. Authority is {golly gee, not so fun} sometimes. I disliked inspectors before I started working with them. And my first inspections were in San Francisco so I still didn't like them early on. But after working with them I have no problem at all with inspectors outside of personality deficits if they have any. But I think the general population has a sort of disdain for inspection and inspectors that comes from a lack of trust in government. There are a lot of just plain nasty things the government and people in it do. Why is it surprising there would be a rift?

 

[bphgravity]

Re: I am angry and I need to rant

I make that comment because most electricians seem to have clear and present memory of some bad thing an inspector said or did, but they never seem to recall the time the inspector let something slide or allowed for a repair to be made instead of just failing the job. On many occasions, I have left advisories that state a needed correction and only comment that I will check on final.

I know nobody believes it and I can't speak for other areas, but our building department does not have a secret failed inspection quota that inspectors must meet. Our greatest source of income is from other non-Amercian policies such as impact fees and tree removal taxes.

 

[aelectricalman]

Re: I am angry and I need to rant

There are just little towns out there you just can't beat. It may help to write a letter to the state. Infact, I had a problem one time where the inspector underbid me on a job and was successful. I lost the job to the inspector. Funny huh. Well I had the job and a verbal committment from the contractor ( I had a third party there to verify the commitment). The contractor told me weeks later that my price was too high and I needed to come down or he had another guy to do it. I could not budge on the price much. Well I found out it was the inspector because I was doing the house next door also. When I saw the inspector doing the work, I asked him how he could do the work since he could not hold a KY state contractors and inspectors license at the same time. He told me it was his buddies business and contractors #, yet he was the only one on the job. I wrote a letter to the state, and received a letter and a call back stating he had not violated any laws. We'll im not happy and I am going to continue talking to the state. In the end, I may sue this inspector for the money lost, but that is only prelininary right now. This house was 7300sqft and about $26,000. My law dog seems to think im in the right and he can prove it.. Well see. But write the state. It may work.

 

[physis]

Re: I am angry and I need to rant

By Bryan:

they never seem to recall the time the inspector let something slide or allowed for a repair to be made instead of just failing the job

Well, I can corroborate what you're saying. I've worked out many wierd things with inspectors in a very amicable fashion. Where the inspectors were very accommodating.

[ July 04, 2005, 04:01 PM: Message edited by: physis ]

 

[physis]

Re: I am angry and I need to rant

Boy Chris, that's a great angle. Imagine the sales oppertunies and advantage of being a building inspector. Sleezyness seems to be rewarded in a lot of cases.

 

[petersonra]

Re: I am angry and I need to rant

relaistically, these little napoleons are the direct result of our tax happy governments and the many people who benefit from them.

if you want to have any real long term effect, the only answer is poltical action, but beware - you may actually get what you ask for and you might not like what you get.

for the most part, these arbitrary kind of things indirectly benefit existing contractors in the area, and reduces competition, which is to your benefit.

 

[wildman]

Re: I am angry and I need to rant

I will title this one "I don't Care!"
Attended a 4 hour continuous education class the other night...required by the state to keep my contractors' license....the class was on changes to the 2005 code.......class taught by local inspector....a question was proposed to the inspector concerning getting power turned on quicker in a residential dwelling when people were occupying the dwelling....inspector replied the power company would be notified by e-mail upon completion of his inspection and his return to the office! A statement was made"this could take days"....inspector replied "I don't care"
He was not being mean!...The housing industry around here is booming and inspections are taking longer to complete!! The contractor should notify homeowners of the possibility of "nopower" even for days...so they can make arrangements to stay with friends/ relatives/
motel, etc. Don't blame the problem on the inspector! This is just one instance where things can get out of hand and the inspector gets that abusive phone call!!