I am angry and I need to rant

[allenwayne]

Re: I am angry and I need to rant

Some of the new inspectors I have encountered in the past 15 years have left the gate like a brane bull that has been cattle proded usually after about 6 months to a year after they are i the field the come around ,some take a bit longer but eventually they realize by not allowing a simple correction to be made at the time of inspection thier work load doubles then tripples

 

[hurk27]

Re: I am angry and I need to rant

By Peter: Ultimately, the consumer is paying for this mess.

And somtimes it is with there lives.

 

[allenwayne]

Re: I am angry and I need to rant

Bhp I am not sure if your inspectors use the same correction notice forms that ours do but at the bottom there is a section where the small print is corrections not made within 15 days may result in penalties from $500.00 up to$5,000.00.
But the kicker is that there is also a section that requires the inspector to haveat least tried to make field contact,at the least at the end of the business day call the contractor before A $ fine is imposed.
Several months ago the chief building inspector had a meeting with all the inspectors telling them of this requirement.Before a $$$ tag was to be issued they at least at the end of the day were to call the contractor that a correction notice had been issued and in order to reibspect they had to contact the EC and inform them of what the viloation was and what was needed to pass .
The county had almost 4,000 outstanding permits due to red tag/payable fees,and the chief building inspector told all thier guys to write non fee correcton notices first then charge the applicable fees.
1st tag free
2nd tag $30
3rd tag $60
4th tag $100
5th tag $500 and called before the board
Now I think that is fine.But that lasted all of about 2 weeks.
Then it was back to $30 red tags from jump street.Don`t get me wrong if an EC fails to do thier job then they should be tagged,but when a framer adding window bucking creates a tag issue after the rough in,or fire blocks a wall after walls are built and just pushes our nm out of the wall so they can add said fire blocking,to me this isn`t an nec violation.Maybe poor scheduling,but it is quite ovious who was there first.There are some inspectors that will call and say hey the framers f _ _ _ _ d you and did this or that I`ll give it a non fee green tag,get it taken care of but there are still some that just rip out that $30 tag and only write up 100% reinspect required.So we go and fix the framers changes,maybe we miss the access that was not on the print but is now framed in 6 ft rule BLAM $30 ,Or we miss the med cabinel and Blam $60.
The AHJ having jurisdictiction is nothing but a cash register waiting to get filled Last year we did over 2,500 homes and this year it looks more like over 3,000 You would think with the work load placed on the inspectors.they would just call ( some do but not most)
On average they roll 10 to 20 inspections a day.You would think they would want to clear thier plate but no lets just add what is rolled to the next 30 they get
So now they hired private engineering firms to help,But they spot check them and fail what has been passed some reasons actually happened.Bending radius where the nm stapled going into a can was pushed up more than they thought it should be,orbox out of wall when it is obvious that insulatters pump edexpandabl foam behind a solid chipped out 4 gang
If it is legit and it violated(our install)
ny all means tag it,Oh the best is when an lv compamy fails to protect thier wire and we get the tag for 800.6 i think it is that relates back t 300.4 D
Somebody draw a line here

 

[bphgravity]

Re: I am angry and I need to rant

I'm starting to think I live in a little world of make believe and that things are alot worse than I am perceiving. Perhaps the area I live in is too small and too young and hasn't developed into a Tampa or large New England city. However, with our explosive growth, that isn't too far into our future. I am honestly a little concerned.

 

[George Stolz]

Re: I am angry and I need to rant

Originally posted by allenwayne:
...orbox out of wall when it is obvious that insulatters pump edexpandabl foam behind a solid chipped out 4 gang

It would be nice if all AHJ's were educated, and understanding, and kind. It would also be nice if I suddenly discovered someone dropped a million bucks in the back of my truck. Sometimes, it just doesn't work out that way.

So, it's the same old story: keeping doing what you do to the best of your ability, whether you're a sparky or an inspector.

 

[physis]

Re: I am angry and I need to rant

It's rather pleasant where I work Bryan but I only have to go to San Francisco if I want to be hassled now and then.

 

[volt101]

Re: I am angry and I need to rant

by Peter
They make you install "Firomatic" devices above gas burners even though the code only requires them for oil burners.

Can you enlighten me and quote a code for the requirement of the "Firomatic" device for an oil burner.

Jim

 

[peter d]

Re: I am angry and I need to rant

Jim,

I tried to, but since my computer was destroyed by a virus, I no longer have Acrobat reader so I couldn't view the link that contained the requirement.

Was there a particular state that you had in mind? In the oil heat Northeast this is a common requirement, at least in the states I know (Mass, RI and Conn, and most likely Me, Vt, NH and NY as well. )

I think I am going to enlist the help of a fellow Yankee to post the link.

[ July 06, 2005, 09:37 PM: Message edited by: peter d ]

 

[physis]

Re: I am angry and I need to rant

You can download the reader for free Peter. I think you can find it under Adobe or I can give you a link.

 

[peter d]

Re: I am angry and I need to rant

Originally posted by physis:
You can download the reader for free Peter. I think you can find it under Adobe or I can give you a link.

Yeah, it turns out it was the website's fault, not mine.

I couldn't find the link to the Firomatic rule. I know it's out there somewhere. I may end up at city hall before all is said and done.

[ July 06, 2005, 10:25 PM: Message edited by: peter d ]

 

[infinity]

Re: I am angry and I need to rant

I guess that we're lucky. Around here inspectors hardly inspect at all. Most of them are part time hired by individual municipalities. I recently had a final inspection last less than five minutes for a commercial space he never even looked at the panel. It's typical for a service upgrade to have an inspection last about 3 minutes. He usually looks for the water main ground, the ground rods, and a panel directory and he's out the door.

A fellow contractor I know just did a service upgrade where the supply house gave him a MLO panel instead of one with a main breaker. The apprentice installed it without realizing that the CB was missing and that the house now had no main disconnect. The contractor saw this after checking the work and figured he would come back in a few days to correct it. After they left the job the homeowner called for an inspection and it PASSED! This is without the main!

For anyone who has ever worked in NYC they can tell you that on a commercial job there are only FINAL inspections. You will never see an inspector for a rough in inspection because they don't even have them. The drywall is literally going up right after the sparkies put their stuff in the walls.


One more thought on inspections, I know a highly respected inspector with 30+ years in the business who at his code seminars tells his students that a 'good inspection' is when he hears a song on the radio as he pulls up to the job and it's still playing when he gets back into his car...

[ July 07, 2005, 05:29 AM: Message edited by: infinity ]

 

[jwelectric]

Re: I am angry and I need to rant

Now how does this go? Go in a eight get paid for eight and be home in time for the soaps.
Must be a hard life.

No I tend to disagree, not all Code Enforcement Officials are like this in NC, only the inspectors.

 

[iwire]

Re: I am angry and I need to rant

Originally posted by peter d:
Was there a particular state that you had in mind? In the oil heat Northeast this is a common requirement, at least in the states I know (Mass, RI and Conn, and most likely Me, Vt, NH and NY as well. )

I think I am going to enlist the help of a fellow Yankee to post the link.

Here is the regulation in MA

527 CMR 4.044)(e) An electrical thermal switch fused to break the ungrounded conductor in the main circuit at 165?F, shall be installed in the main power line within six feet over the top of the burner-boiler or burner-furnace. If the ceiling above the burner-boiler or burner-furnace exceeds 12 feet in height, an additional thermal switch shall be installed on the ceiling and connected in series with the lower switch.

 

[inspector 102]

Re: I am angry and I need to rant

Because I also like to rant, I would say that some of the problems that I have while inspecting is the contractor that continually feels they don't need to call for inspections. I have been inspecting for 16 years with this community and know most of the contractors. They know me and most have my home phone number. As the single inspector for the area, I know who I can trust and who I have to keep an eye on. If I am busy, I will tell the trustworthy ones to continue and I will get there as soon as I can. I do not want to hold up anyones job. I make it a game when I meet a new contractor to start a code quiz session to see what knowledge they have, and also to express what knowledge I have of the code. If there is a particular issue that we disagree, we discuss it then, not after the installation is completed. I have always felt that I am educating the contractor on the law changes, and they are educating me on the product changes. Together, we seem to get along quite well.

 

[peter d]

Re: I am angry and I need to rant

Thanks Bob, It looks like the Mass requirement applies to all boilers and furnaces, not just oil.

-----


I'm glad to hear that there are some parts of the country where inspectors and contractors get together and work together. It certainly is not what I am used to.

 

[augie47]

Re: I am angry and I need to rant

Having been in this business for more years than I care to admit, I feel compelled to reply. I have worn the electrican, contractor, and inspector hat. My comments:
1. Inspectors are human:
Despite some comments about inspectors' lineage, they are human with diverse personalities..... dealing with them, as in dealing with customers, requires a degree of "people skills". For the most part, electricians and contractors are not adversaries. Try to approach the situation with that attitude.
2. Inspectors have a job to do
It's been my experience that most are somewhat like myself and inspector 102 (above)..dedicated to do our job which includes checking code compliance and attempting to keep electricans abreast of code changes, etc. Turning you down is most likely not a personal vendetta.
Remember, we have major liability involved also. If there is an electrical fire or injury on a job which is shown to have code violations, the inspector can have hell to pay also.
3. Trust/ Set the "tone":
You can show yourself to be knowledgable and dedicated to turn out a quality job, or you can show yourself to be antagonistic, with limited code knowledge. You can react to a rejection as "opps! missed that" or as "damn inspectors"
The inspector will react in kind.
4.Know the code:
Most of us are willing to discuss alleged deficiencies, but we prefer you at least read the appropriate code section before presenting your point. I'm not at all insulted when the electrician pulls out his code book and asks to review a disputed area. On occcasion, I've found the electrician has a valid point. Even ole fart inspectors like myslef can learn.
Anything I enforce, I can back-up in print thru NEC or ordinances. If you disgaree, you read it and let's discuss it. If the inspector won't discuss it, see #5 below.
5. Supervision:
Most inspectors have some supervision. If there is a rotten apple, several contractors are likely aware. A UNITED effort to identify them to the governing body is usually effective.
5. Familiarty
If possible, meet your inspector. Let him know you have an interest in turning out a quality, code-compliant job. See if he has any input on what you are doing. He's been to a lot of rodeos. Ask!, don't second guess.
Several areas have IAEI meetings to promote code knowledge.

For the most part electricians have a right to be proud, They turn out a quality, safe job.
For the most part, as inspectors, we are a second set of eyeys to check those jobs; we are hopefully code knowledgable to help keep the electricans up to date.
My experience is that time weeds out the rotten electricans and the rotten inspectors as well.
Difficult to swallow, short term, but try to look at the overall picture. Life is too short to fret over the small bumps in the road.

 

[rbalex]

Re: I am angry and I need to rant

Originally posted by augie47:
?
2. Inspectors have a job to do
It's been my experience that most are somewhat like myself and inspector 102 (above)..dedicated to do our job which includes checking code compliance and attempting to keep electricans abreast of code changes, etc. Turning you down is most likely not a personal vendetta.
Remember, we have major liability involved also. If there is an electrical fire or injury on a job which is shown to have code violations, the inspector can have hell to pay also.
?

In all honesty, until I had to deal with the current CBO of the project I?m on, I?ve never had a serious problem with any inspector in over 35 years. However, I have also never seen a statute that grants an AHJ their ?authority? to enforce that didn?t also somewhere exempt them from responsibility ? and I?ve read plenty of them from coast to coast.

One of my very favorites from the City of Los Angeles Electrical Code (BTW they have some excellent inspectors):

SEC. 93.0315. NON-RESPONSIBILITY OF CITY. {at least they?re up-front about it }
Neither the City of Los Angeles, nor any department, board, commission, officer or employee thereof shall be held liable or responsible for any damage or injury caused by or resulting from the issuance of any permit issued, or any inspection or approval made under the provisions of this Code.

 

[iwire]

Re: I am angry and I need to rant

Originally posted by peter d:
Thanks Bob, It looks like the Mass requirement applies to all boilers and furnaces, not just oil.

I should have included the name of the section that came from. 'Oil Burner Regulations'

You where originally correct, in MA anyway it only applies to oil fired equipment.


I have 'had' to install them on gas units in RI. on a pick and choose basis. :roll:

 

[sandsnow]

Re: I am angry and I need to rant

Originally posted by rbalex:
However, I have also never seen a statute that grants an AHJ their ?authority? to enforce that didn?t also somewhere exempt them from responsibility ? and I?ve read plenty of them from coast to coast.

One of my very favorites from the City of Los Angeles Electrical Code (BTW they have some excellent inspectors):

SEC. 93.0315. NON-RESPONSIBILITY OF CITY. {at least they?re up-front about it }
Neither the City of Los Angeles, nor any department, board, commission, officer or employee thereof shall be held liable or responsible for any damage or injury caused by or resulting from the issuance of any permit issued, or any inspection or approval made under the provisions of this Code.

Bob's right; however I've been "told" that "willfull negligence" would not be covered under the hold harmless. I do not know of a statute etc. that states that. It seems if you could prove it, you plaintiff would have an airtight case.

 

[hurk27]

Re: I am angry and I need to rant

Larry I think we are on the same page on this,

or any inspection or approval made under the provisions of this Code.

This is the way I was told by my lawyer:
If a inspector allows things to pass that are not code compliant then he can be held liable if property damage or injury or even death arises out of the non compliant part of the electric system.

All the disclaimer is if they inspect by what is in the code and because of this property damage or injury happens then they are not liable.

If they enforce codes or requirements that are not in the code, and property damage or injury happens. They can be held liable.

They have to be enforcing within the scope of the code of local or state ordinances to not be held liable. Our state also has the same disclaimer but the funny thing liability cant be signed off by anyone. This has changed the thinking of some of the inspectors around here as for following the code.

[ July 08, 2005, 01:07 AM: Message edited by: hurk27 ]