I could be wrong

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iwire said:
Allen really how many employees fit your above description?

If you have that employee give him a raise and stop trying to say that buying the tools of the trade are going to make his kids go hungry.

It's absurd.

If someone has that tight of a situation maybe they need to work a night job....I used to work a night job as an apprentice, I have had to walk to work and had I had kids you can bet I would work as many jobs as it takes.
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Bob does it really matter if there is one fitting this description or 10.The point is that there are some in situations that don`t afford them the luxury of purchaces outside the realm of survival items.

I too worked 2 jobs when I was young,for awhile it was 2 full time jobs.But not everyone is able to do that.Some have other things stopping that.I know of one really hard working guy that has gotten the raises he deserved for the time he has been employed.He`s the one that rides his bike in all weather to work.He can`t work an extra job his wife is ill and his mom stays with her and the kids during the day while he works.He can`t work another job or he would.He has to be there while his mom works nights.Sometimes things just aren`t cut and dry as we like.
 
allenwayne said:
Bob does it really matter if there is one fitting this description or 10.The point is that there are some in situations that don`t afford them the luxury of purchaces outside the realm of survival items.

I too worked 2 jobs when I was young,for awhile it was 2 full time jobs.But not everyone is able to do that.Some have other things stopping that.I know of one really hard working guy that has gotten the raises he deserved for the time he has been employed.He`s the one that rides his bike in all weather to work.He can`t work an extra job his wife is ill and his mom stays with her and the kids during the day while he works.He can`t work another job or he would.He has to be there while his mom works nights.Sometimes things just aren`t cut and dry as we like.
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The new guy also needs many tools that could easily reach $1,OOO or more for just basic tools.For his first few years he is not likely to need a code book.The crew leader will or should have one.They start out with basic tools and add as they can afford.Our company has its share of guys that can not read and some with no transportation but this does not mean they are not good electricians.Make a list of tools with most important ones first.Where on this list is the nec ?
 
There are a lot of good comments here. I want to touch on a few.

Mike,
It sounds to me like you and I are a lot alike. The people we teach may be in different states, the classes we teach are probably the same, and we run into the same issues. Yes I have students who barely read, who barely can afford the class, and some I have not asked for any money, as I know they are in hard times... I want them in class, so I let them in. The ones who I think may never make it, I give them additional help and I do not tell them that I think they won't make it, there is always a glimmer of hope and I do not want to be the one who dashes their dreams. Like you, I have guys who come back, to me that is the beginning of success. Persistance and perseverance are two qualities it takes to make it in this world.

Bob
When I started this thread, it was just thinking out loud and hoping someone was listening... I had no intention on picking on moderators or anyone else for that matter, if that was the case I would have PMed someone.

Your response to Wayne's post kind of surprises me. He spilled his guts to let you understand how some people in our trade get started and just need time and help. Not everyone makes the right choices, but they deserve a chance. As a matter of fact, I believe that just about anyone who makes the effort, whether or not they make the right choices, needs the help to get them along.
Help comes in the form of: guidance, nudging them along, maybe financial (that can be in many different ways- maybe one day I would buy a guy lunch when I know he is broke- that helps in relationships a lot). Help sometimes comes in the form of just doing nothing and letting time take its course.
Have I been burned by these guys? One year I had this guy working for me. He was a heck of a nice guy and always tried...yet he did make some tough choices in his life. One pay day he asked to borrow money, I leant it to him... I never saw him again. Sure I was upset, has that stopped me from helping others, no. I have been burned since then again, I have survived that and will do it again if I think it will help, such as letting guys in class and not charging for books.


Back to my OP. Lets just not be so harsh to some of the other people on this site, if we do not like what someone says, ignore it and move on. My father told me a thousand times "if you have nothing good to say, say nothing".
 
Jim W in Tampa said:
For his first few years he is not likely to need a code book.
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I don't know how to respond to that.

A few years????

Maybe it is a regional thing?

Here we expect apprentices to have code books, not so they can run work but so they can learn the NEC and how to use it. They are also going to 600 hours of required school at night while they work days in the field.

The $70 code book is a drop in the bucket compared to the thousands of $ the 600 hour class costs them if their employer does not pay for it.

I had my first code book when I was about 15 and went into trade school, everyone in that class had a code book.

Some days we used the book other days we worked on projects.

It seems that FL and MA are far more apart than the map indicates.
 
Pierre,That was very well put.My grandmother had a saying.

When you spit up in the air it will come back and hit you in the face,but if you offer a helping hand it will come back 10 fold.

I too have bought lunch for guys when I knew they couldn`t.Given extra tools to guys that needed them and couldn`t afford them.I even slipped a 20 in a guys pouch knowing he had kids and was out of money on wednesday it was rent week.

Have I been hard on my helpers over the years ??? Oh yeah.But everyone of them,the ones I chose to keep have gone on to become good electricians.I live my life by her words and it hasn`t failed me in over 49 years.
 
This is ridiculous.

You painting me to be heartless when all I expect is a 40 hour a week employee to buy a code book.
 
I agree with Bob about the code book. Say for 99.99% of the people. That one in ten thousand hardship case would be the exception. Even then, I feel that individual could get by by using a previous version to become familiar with it. Or even borrow one for use at night from a generous coworker. That's my feelings for a fairly new apprentice. For more experienced apprentices, I feel a current codebook is essential for reaching your utmost potential. Unfortunately, many other things (tools, attitude, effort, enthusiasm) are also essential to reach your potential. Many employees lack these as well.
 
iwire said:
This is ridiculous.

You painting me to be heartless when all I expect is a 40 hour a week employee to buy a code book.
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If that's all you expect, then I am really heartless. (Note can't post my winking smiley)
 
Back to OP. If some of the licensed contractors and even inspectors that I deal with every day were to ask questions on this forum that they don't know the answer to, many here would be amazed. We all should keep in mind that the people on this forum are not (IMO) a good cross section of the electrical industry. We are a good cross section of those constantly trying to improve. Too many people in the industry are complacent. I'd agree we should try to encourage the new forum members. I also agree that an appropriate comment to someone we know well may not be appropriate for a new acquaintance.
 
iwire said:
LOL

Maybe.

But I will never be the "Bridges of Madison County" Clint..:D
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bridges.jpg


I dunno. People might think you had a heart, then.

(Ducking, grinning and running!)
 
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