I have an inspector failing a job for the main service panel having too many wires?

[lifeonezmode]

I cant seem to come up with an answer here, is there such a thing the panel has 1 open spot for a breaker and plenty of room on the neutral and ground bars im only adding 4 number 6,s with two taps. Blk red white and ground. Can anyone show me the section for this?

 

[xformer]

I cant seem to come up with an answer here, is there such a thing the panel has 1 open spot for a breaker and plenty of room on the neutral and ground bars im only adding 4 number 6,s with two taps. Blk red white and ground. Can anyone show me the section for this?

Can we see a pic?

 

[lifeonezmode]

This is it before any of our wires are in there and all weve added is the 4 #6s

 

[infinity]

Too many wires in that panel? Inspector is not even close on this one. He should give you a code section that has been violated (there isn't one related to the amount of fill shown). The panel is an ugly mess but that's not an issue.

 

[lifeonezmode]

Ya trying to find a way to prove he's wrong

 

[winnie]

What was the exact violation that the inspector cited?

You say 'neutral and ground bars'. Are there separate bars or a single bar for both?

Hard to see in the picture, but I wonder if there are multiple neutral conductors or neutral and ground conductors in a single hole on the ground/neutral bar?

-Jon

 

[infinity]

Ya trying to find a way to prove he's wrong

He has to prove that you're wrong let him start with a code section that's being violated.

 

[lifeonezmode]

Thanks jon but no he was saying box fill. Which i think is ridiculous.

 

[ptonsparky]

Ask him for a code reference so you can study up and see where you went wrong. Ask nicely.

 

[ptonsparky]

Thanks jon but no he was saying box fill. Which i think is ridiculous.

Again ask for specifics.

 

[infinity]

Thanks jon but no he was saying box fill. Which i think is ridiculous.

So he's saying the panel gutter is over filled? I believe that without splices and taps you're allowed up to 20% fill in the gutter space. From what is shown in the photo you're not even close.

 

[tthh]

If he is saying box fill, try this on him. It will take you some time to run the calculation, but it is definitive. Calculate the entire box volume. Now measure the height and width of the breaker section. Subtract that from the box volume. Now just list out the number of wires. Yes, I ignored the grounbd bars, but you will be nowhere close to the box fill limit. Honestly, the box fill limit sometimes seems too crowed for my taste.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

So he's saying the panel gutter is over filled? I believe that without splices and taps you're allowed up to 20% fill in the gutter space. From what is shown in the photo you're not even close.

It is 40% for wires and 75% where there are splices or taps per 312.8(A).

 

[ptonsparky]

How many space panel? 30?
Do you have 90 conductors in there? Doesn't look like they all come in one side of the panel. Do they loop around a couple times?
Do the math if you need to

 

[Dennis Alwon]

How many space panel? 30?
Do you have 90 conductors in there? Doesn't look like they all come in one side of the panel. Do they loop around a couple times?
Do the math if you need to

I wouldn't even begin to know how to do the math on that. Sounds like a large undertaking.... Just by looking there is no way that panel is overfilled.

The total area of all conductors, splices, taps, and equipment
at any cross section of the wiring space does not
exceed 75 percent of the cross-sectional area of that
space.

 

[infinity]

I wouldn't even begin to know how to do the math on that.

Just take a cross section of the gutter space say 4x4 which is 16 square inches. Now figure out the area occupied by each conductor within that cross section. Do not use the cu inch requirements for boxes in Article 314 for the conductor area.

 

[Fred B]

I wouldn't even begin to know how to do the math on that. Sounds like a large undertaking.... Just by looking there is no way that panel is overfilled.

This panel looks to have a much larger than average gutter compared to new panels, but to even getting near 75% fill it would be so pack you'd barely get a screw driver to slide in between the wires.
It is definitely a mess, If the "spaghetti" was cleaned up it should be obvious that there is no overfill.
Had a lighting contactor splice box 14x14x6 that was so packed the cover could barely go on, cleaned out the spaghetti and it was about 80% empty space with the same number of conductors entering.

Now the ground/Neutral bus looks to have a fill issue, with potential for doubled Neutral connections. But it sounds like the Inspector didn't call that out.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

If the wire gutter space is 3" X 3" a 40% fill would be 170 10 AWG THHN conductors. Even if it is 2" x 3" there is code legal room for 113 10 AWGs.

 

[infinity]

If you look at post #18 and Don's calculations you'll see something that is blatantly obvious, it is for all intents and purposes impossible to exceed the 40% fill of the gutter space. This inspector is completely wrong.

 

[tthh]

That's a good way to present it to the inspector. "This is the size that it would have to be in order to be at the limit".