I just can't explain this...

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FlyingSparks

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I have been asked repeatedly, but I just don't have a good answer.
Arc-faults are required almost everywhere in a house now. Part of the reason being, for protection due to damage in the wiring within the house. So important is this concept, that the wiring to the first arc-fault receptacle (if it existed) possibly only 4 feet away from the panel, must be in conduit, since that small portion of the wiring wouldn't be protected.

So why is all of the wiring to the garage, crawl space, attic, kitchen and bathroom allowed to be run through the house without protection?

Any ideas?:-?
 
Please forgive the cynical nature of this response, but I would say it is because the purveyors of arc fault devices have not yet sold to the code making panels the need to have their devices installed in all circuits throughout the house.

Welcome to the forum.
 
charlie b said:
Please forgive the cynical nature of this response, but I would say it is because the purveyors of arc fault devices have not yet sold to the code making panels the need to have their devices installed in all circuits throughout the house.

Welcome to the forum.
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Amen to that brother!
 
charlie b said:
Please forgive the cynical nature of this response, but I would say it is because the purveyors of arc fault devices have not yet sold to the code making panels the need to have their devices installed in all circuits throughout the house.

Welcome to the forum.
Click to expand...

I agree!! They still haven't been manufactured to prove that they are worthy in my opinion.
 
charlie b said:
Please forgive the cynical nature of this response, but I would say it is because the purveyors of arc fault devices have not yet sold to the code making panels the need to have their devices installed in all circuits throughout the house.

Welcome to the forum.
Click to expand...

As Grandma use to say you hit the nail on the head.
 
Nearly all areas of a dwelling unit that do not require arc-fault protection are those where the 15 and 20 amp 125V receptacle outlets are required to be GFCI protected. That may, in part, explain some of the rationale behind the rule. I can't speak for other locales, but in Idaho opposition to AFCIs comes mainly from lobbyists for Building Trade Associations and General Contractors; and AFCI protection is required only in bedrooms.
 
Could you please explain where you got the info:

"So important is this concept, that the wiring to the first arc-fault receptacle (if it existed) possibly only 4 feet away from the panel, must be in conduit"

Have i missed a change? Is this in the new code?
or Some made up rule by a local AHJ?
 
To the OP; please go to Mike Holts Web Page, on the left open Newletters, use "All Newletters" and read the Oct 26th "Branch Circuits - Part 1", your orginal post will be clearly reviewed and presented as to the correct measures of appling ARC-Fault Breakers...

If you like you can also sign up to recieve the newletter to your e-mail address, I do highly recommned it!

Welcome to the Forum!
 
Its really simple, by taking it one step at a time they make more from the payoffs. They are coming just going to take a few more years.
Personally i have more faith in a gfi breaker than an arc fault. 5 ma will not do much damage before tripping
 
shockare said:
Could you please explain where you got the info:

"So important is this concept, that the wiring to the first arc-fault receptacle (if it existed) possibly only 4 feet away from the panel, must be in conduit"

Have i missed a change? Is this in the new code?
or Some made up rule by a local AHJ?
Click to expand...
Read Exception No. 1 to 210.12(B). That's were the metal protection comes from. The limitation, at present, is that no manufacturer has yet released a receptacle type combination AFCI that we can install.
 
Jim W in Tampa said:
Its really simple, by taking it one step at a time they make more from the payoffs. They are coming just going to take a few more years.
Personally i have more faith in a gfi breaker than an arc fault. 5 ma will not do much damage before tripping
Click to expand...
Can an arc that draws only 5 miliamps start a fire? Will a GFCI trip on an arc from the load side hot to the load side neutral?

I seriously don't know, these are questions, not statements.

By the way I don't like arc fault breakers, or seatbelts.
 
readydave8 said:
Will a GFCI trip on an arc from the load side hot to the load side neutral?
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A hot to neutral short is only protected by the overcurrent protective device on the circuit. The short circuit current coming out on the hot is all returned on the neutral, so the two currents are equal, but opposite in direction, when they pass through the GFCI sensing transformer, and the sensing transformer has not output to the tripping circuitry of the GFCI.

So a line to neutral short can have a lot of energy released in its arc before the fuse or breaker clears the fault.
 
A gfi is happy as long as it gets everything back that it sent so no if arc is hot to neutral will not trip but very unlikely that type of arc would last long enough to start a fire. The arc will likely flash over to ground or somethink else. Arc faults were designed out of greed not need. Its politics to get there new product required by code. Please don't try and tell me money is not changing hands.
Its always been known that more money can be made with an ink pen than any other way
 
Jim W in Tampa said:
A gfi is happy as long as it gets everything back that it sent so no if arc is hot to neutral will not trip but very unlikely that type of arc would last long enough to start a fire. The arc will likely flash over to ground or somethink else. Arc faults were designed out of greed not need. Its politics to get there new product required by code. Please don't try and tell me money is not changing hands.
Its always been known that more money can be made with an ink pen than any other way
Click to expand...
So you were'nt saying that GFCI's would prevent fires, you were saying that arc fault breakers won't prevent many?
 
readydave8 said:
So you were'nt saying that GFCI's would prevent fires, you were saying that arc fault breakers won't prevent many?
Click to expand...

The problem is not that they can't detect a series arc it is how their doing it.

Here is a thread where I brought this up about a problem on long branch circuits to UL a long time ago, well they danced all around the problem but never seem to say much against it:

http://forums.mikeholt.com/showthread.php?t=69614

Indiana removed all AFCI requirements.
 
Jim W in Tampa said:
A gfi is happy as long as it gets everything back that it sent so no if arc is hot to neutral will not trip but very unlikely that type of arc would last long enough to start a fire. The arc will likely flash over to ground or somethink else. Arc faults were designed out of greed not need. Its politics to get there new product required by code. Please don't try and tell me money is not changing hands.
Its always been known that more money can be made with an ink pen than any other way
Click to expand...

I disagree that it would not start a fire, I have seen a few fires caused by cords that had no ground in them and cords that burned before tripping the circuit breaker. I doubt the original (non-combination type) AFCI's would have cut out in these case's (based on what I have read on how they sense a fault) and I don't know if the new Combo type can detect these types of faults (in an extension cord) in time to stop a fire either, I know others will comment on this.
But I do fully agree that the push to make them mandatory is all about the $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ The average house I wire has over 60 circuits in it and we are still on 2005 cycle until January, after that it means of these 60 circuits about 30 will be AFCI's instead of the 4 or 5 I need now. 30 times $39.00ea. is $1170.00 parts added to each job, instead of $195.00. Multiply that by every house being built nation wide and it is easy to see why there is such a push to require them everywhere in the house. The dadblamd things are as moody as an old woman too, you never know what is going to set them off.
 
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