I only work on disconnected panels. Do I need PPE?

[Dan Kissel]

If I only work on disconnected panels, must I have an arc flash study done? My facilities are 480 vac - Y. If I disconnect the power feeding the panel that I am going to work on, then I should not need to put on PPE to work on that panel. Am I correct?

Can I operate a properly maintained disconnect switch on a MCC or distribution panel without PPE?

 

[Dennis Alwon]

I would think if you can prevent the power from being turned on accidentally then it would be fine to not use PPE but I am unfamiliar with those rules.

 

[Pharon]

Can I operate a properly maintained disconnect switch on a MCC or distribution panel without PPE?

My understanding of 70E is no -- if you're in front of the disconnect and operating to either energize or de-energize, you need the proper PPE.

 

[petersonra]

If I only work on disconnected panels, must I have an arc flash study done? My facilities are 480 vac - Y. If I disconnect the power feeding the panel that I am going to work on, then I should not need to put on PPE to work on that panel. Am I correct?

Can I operate a properly maintained disconnect switch on a MCC or distribution panel without PPE?

IMO

The arc flash study is required regardless of whether you work on it live or not.

You have to apply proper PPE while you prove the panel is no longer energized. Once you have shown it is no longer energized the PPE can be removed.

I believe that it is safe to operate a properly maintained switch w/o PPE. Others may disagree. However, a lot of switches are not routinely operated and have had little or no maintenance done on them over the years, so i would suggest caution, especially on older switches and certain kind of switches. I think small safety switches are a better bet to be safely operable than a bolted pressure switch. personally, if I had my druthers, I would make some kind of cutoff point where a closer look is required. Not so much because a 100A switch is inherently more dangerous than a 60A switch, but because the fall out from causing an arc fault upstream is much higher than downstream. Better to have an extra set of eyes give it the once over and sign a permit.

 

[iwire]

You have to apply proper PPE while you prove the panel is no longer energized. Once you have shown it is no longer energized the PPE can be removed.

That is really the kicker right there, you need to know what level PPE is required just to prove it is dead.

 

[petersonra]

My understanding of 70E is no -- if you're in front of the disconnect and operating to either energize or de-energize, you need the proper PPE.

where does it actually say that?

 

[wbdvt]

See Table 130.7(C)(15)(A)(a).

As far as the original question, just to re-iterate, the panel has to be treated as energized until proven de-energized by testing. Therefore the proper PPE would be needed to test dead.

 

[petersonra]

See Table 130.7(C)(15)(A)(a).

As far as the original question, just to re-iterate, the panel has to be treated as energized until proven de-energized by testing. Therefore the proper PPE would be needed to test dead.

Isn't that just one option, as opposed to being a requirement?

 

[kentirwin]

Verification

Verification

You have to first verify the absence of voltage before you can do any work in the panel without PPE. OSHA and NFPA 70E consider verification via meter to be energized work with requisite PPE until the absence of voltage has been proven.

 

[meternerd]

Well....I am definitely not an expert on PPE rules, but I have a story (of course...). Working on a 277/480 pump station with a fused disconnect panel that also contained control circuitry. Standing in water in a dark, cramped control house. I had the water tech (gorilla, really) pull the disconnect handle to off and open the door while I grabbed my tools. Assuming all was dead (my bad), I started jiggling wires to see if we had a loose connection. Heard a relay "click"! What!!! Checked with my meter (no gloves) and had full voltage everywhere. Turns out, the gorilla had pulled down the handle and the contacts were rusted shut, so all he did was break the mechanical linkage from the handle to the disconnect. No excuses...just stupid. The correct procedure was to wear PPE to test for dead, tag any source breakers and only then remove any PPE. Why didn't I??? The moon suit was too hot, hard to see, cumbersome and all I was doing was checking for loose connections. I could probably come up with a few more excuses, but you get the idea. The ONLY way to know if it's dead is to test it, and the ONLY safe way to test it is with a meter and appropriate PPE. Nuff said. Rules aren't just for the other guy!

High voltage linemen have a saying..."Identify, isolate, test and ground....if it isn't grounded, it isn't dead!" Good advice.

Another old saying..."There are old electricians and bold electricians, but there aren't that many old, bold electricians." Sorry if I'm preaching, but the hard way is a bad way to learn. Don't ask how I know!:ashamed1:

 

[wtucker]

The moon suit was too hot, hard to see, cumbersome...

Sounds like you were using a 40-cal/cm2 "moon suit" when all you needed was an 8 cal. with a face shield and balaclava!

 

[Dan Kissel]

PPE Dead panel tested

PPE Dead panel tested

My company installed the LED indicator lights on the incoming service and test points on the outside of the cabinet. When the electrician wants to service the cabinet, he verifies the LEDs are on. He then operates the disconnect, the LEDs should go out, which verifies the LEDs work and then he checks the voltage. It is a double check. The disconnect is stub mounted to the control panel.

The electrician can then safely open the door without the PPE. All the electricians triple check out of habit but they should not need the PPE.

The only problem with my approach is most panels have yellow wired interlock wires (120vac or 24dc) from other panels that maybe hot. I can't guarantee those wires are not run next to 480 vac wires.

Where does it end? I can't shut down my entire plant to change a part in one panel?

I'll move my plant and jobs to China. I won't have to put up with OSHA or workers that will take 10 times the risk when they play but demand that I make a work place safer than baby's crib.

 

[kwired]

My company installed the LED indicator lights on the incoming service and test points on the outside of the cabinet. When the electrician wants to service the cabinet, he verifies the LEDs are on. He then operates the disconnect, the LEDs should go out, which verifies the LEDs work and then he checks the voltage. It is a double check. The disconnect is stub mounted to the control panel.

The electrician can then safely open the door without the PPE. All the electricians triple check out of habit but they should not need the PPE.

The only problem with my approach is most panels have yellow wired interlock wires (120vac or 24dc) from other panels that maybe hot. I can't guarantee those wires are not run next to 480 vac wires.

Where does it end? I can't shut down my entire plant to change a part in one panel?

I'll move my plant and jobs to China. I won't have to put up with OSHA or workers that will take 10 times the risk when they play but demand that I make a work place safer than baby's crib.

Welcome to America, where we want it all, don't want to do anything to get it, and want to blame someone else when things don't go our way.

 

[Pharon]

Where does it end? I can't shut down my entire plant to change a part in one panel?

What's the problem with just wearing the proper PPE and doing it live?

 

[iwire]

What's the problem with just wearing the proper PPE and doing it live?

Right there is a belief many seem to have. If I suit up I can do any live work I want to and that is not the case at all.

There are only allowances for live work when troubleshooting and when shutting down is more hazardous than doing the work.

The cost or trouble of shutting down is not a justifiable excuse to work live.

You can't just suit up and change a breaker to avoid the trouble of a shutdown.

 

[cdevine]

My company installed the LED indicator lights on the incoming service and test points on the outside of the cabinet. When the electrician wants to service the cabinet, he verifies the LEDs are on. He then operates the disconnect, the LEDs should go out, which verifies the LEDs work and then he checks the voltage. It is a double check..

A couple of questions:

Do test points on the outside of the panel introduce a safety issue?
How is it that LEDs going out verify that the LEDs work? Couldn't a wire dropping off or an LED failing yield similar behaviour?

 

[Dan Kissel]

A couple of questions:

Do test points on the outside of the panel introduce a safety issue?
How is it that LEDs going out verify that the LEDs work? Couldn't a wire dropping off or an LED failing yield similar behaviour?

The device is made by Grace Port. It has flashing LEDs for each phase and ground that indicate power. All 3 leads would have to fall off at the same time when the disconnect is pulled. The test points are concealed.