Identifying CEE / Ufer

[ShockaBrah]

Doing a small residential Remodel + "Service Mod" (replacing old 50' run of SEU with SER and external disco). House was built ~ 1970, split level with garage under and on a well. Original service included a disconnect inside the garage directly behind meter, main panel fed with 4/0 3-wire to panel with a separate GEC from single exterior ground rod to disco, from disco to panel. Directly below the panel is what to me originally appeared to be a copper coated ground rod driven through the pad with a #4 bare up into the panel (i removed the #4). But after installing a new 200A meter/disco combo and two fresh ground rods with a #6 to the meter, that random interior ground rod was nagging at the back of my mind. I started thinking that maybe, that was not a ground rod but a CEE. I have limited experience with CEE's, but I have never seen a copper-coated ground rod used as one and don't see how it could be done correctly and still use that pronoun (**all chuckle**). I took a pair of channels and tried to turn it to see if it could, nope, smashed it with a sledge nothing happened seemed rock solid. SO anyway, short story long, my question to ya'll is this; have you ever seen a CEE terminated by way of a copper-coated ground rod with an acorn and #4 and is that even possible or is this just simply a ground rod that was driven before the pad was poured. Obviously there is no way for me to verify that the installation meets the requirements of an Ufer and yes I could hook it up anyway but I don't want to buy 60' of #4 to run all the way back to the disconnect if it is just a ground rod. Inspection should be tomorrow and i want to be prepared for a discussion with inspector, so any input is good input.

- \m/ shocka brah

 

[infinity]

have you ever seen a CEE terminated by way of a copper-coated ground rod with an acorn and #4 and is that even possible or is this just simply a ground rod that was driven before the pad was poured.

I don't think that you would use a ground rod as part of a CEE so my money is on the rod being installed before the pour. If it is a rod and it's not 8' in the earth it does not qualify as an electrode anyway. I would just cut it off. You already have a electrode with the two new rods.

 

[ShockaBrah]

I don't think that you would use a ground rod as part of a CEE so my money is on the rod being installed before the pour. If it is a rod and it's not 8' in the earth it does not qualify as an electrode anyway. I would just cut it off. You already have a electrode with the two new rods.

Right, that was my thinking however I have not cut it yet because i didn't want to shoot myself in the foot if it was in fact a CEE. I was just hoping to see what people thought about/ had experience with them and if it is even possible to some how incorporate a ground road into a CEE.

 

[NEC Inspector]

Ufers were not at all common during that time frame, at least not here. They weren't required until the mid-70s anyway, and then they clarified the requirement in the early 2000s because the language was interpreted too permissively by many AHJs.

Theoretically, you could make a large radius bend in the ground rod and tie it to the >20' length of horizontal rebar with tie wires 22" apart as if you were splicing two pieces of rebar, but I think that is very unlikely to have occurred.

 

[infinity]

Right, that was my thinking however I have not cut it yet because i didn't want to shoot myself in the foot if it was in fact a CEE. I was just hoping to see what people thought about/ had experience with them and if it is even possible to some how incorporate a ground road into a CEE.

I'll go out on a limb and say it's 99.9% not a CEE with a ground rod stubbing up. For what it's worth the connection to the CEE has to be to the rebar itself not a ground rod connected to the CEE.

250.68(C)(3) A rebar-type concrete-encased electrode installed in accordance with 250.52(A)(3) with an additional rebar section extended from its location within the concrete foundation or footing to an accessible location that is not subject to corrosion shall be permitted for connection of grounding electrode conductors and bonding jumpers in accordance with the following:
a. The additional rebar section shall be continuous with the grounding electrode rebar or shall be connected to the grounding electrode rebar and connected together by the usual steel tie wires, exothermic welding, welding, or other effective means.
b. The rebar extension shall not be exposed to contact with the earth without corrosion protection.
c. Rebar shall not be used as a conductor to interconnect the electrodes of grounding electrode systems.

 

[ShockaBrah]

I'll go out on a limb and say it's 99.9% not a CEE with a ground rod stubbing up. For what it's worth the connection to the CEE has to be to the rebar itself not a ground rod connected to the CEE.

Yes again and thank you, that was my thinking exactly. I didn't think that is possible to make CEE with a ground rod. I have heard the 70's were wild so maybe that was their intention but from my interpretation of the code it is not possible to have a CEE that stubs up with anything other than rebar or #4.

 

[infinity]

Yes again and thank you, that was my thinking exactly. I didn't think that is possible to make CEE with a ground rod. I have heard the 70's were wild so maybe that was their intention but from my interpretation of the code it is not possible to have a CEE that stubs up with anything other than rebar or #4.

Agreed so therefore it does not qualify as a CEE. Get out the Sawzall or grinder.

 

[ShockaBrah]

@infinity just read a post you made about the CEE / Ufer almost 17 years ago. Good information and again thank you.

 

[petersonra]

Agreed so therefore it does not qualify as a CEE. Get out the Sawzall or grinder.

Not allowed by code. If it is there he has to use it. Unless he can cut enough off to prove it is no longer a ground rods.

 

[infinity]

Not allowed by code. If it is there he has to use it. Unless he can cut enough off to prove it is no longer a ground rods.

If it doesn't qualify as an electrode he can leave it alone or cut it off. A ground rod sticking out of the slab is not buried 8' in the earth so it does not qualify as an electrode.

 

[Little Bill]

If it doesn't qualify as an electrode he can leave it alone or cut it off. A ground rod sticking out of the slab is not buried 8' in the earth so it does not qualify as an electrode.

Devil's advocate
How do you know it isn't a 10' rod with 8' in the ground and 2' sticking up?

 

[infinity]

Devil's advocate
How do you know it isn't a 10' rod with 8' in the ground and 2' sticking up?

You don't and you cannot prove that it is without pulling it out. Given the number of 10' rods I've seen I'll go with the odds that it's only 8' long.

 

[petersonra]

Wouldn't it be just as easy to connect a bonding wire to it?

 

[infinity]

Wouldn't it be just as easy to connect a bonding wire to it?

Yes he could but he's looking to save the time and money on running 60' of #4 copper wire. I wouldn't hook it up.

 

[Little Bill]

Wouldn't it be just as easy to connect a bonding wire to it?

No
30 secs to cut it, no cost
10 mins-30 mins to run jumper, plus cost of conductor

 

[ShockaBrah]

Not allowed by code. If it is there he has to use it. Unless he can cut enough off to prove it is no longer a ground rods.

I am confused by the second sentence. How would I prove it is no longer a ground rod by cutting it off? Wouldn't that just prove that it probably was a ground rod and that I cut it off?

 

[infinity]

I am confused by the second sentence. How would I prove it is no longer a ground rod by cutting it off? Wouldn't that just prove that it probably was a ground rod and that I cut it off?

You cannot prove that this is actually a ground rod. If it's 8' long then it need to be flush with the earth. If you cut off 4" is no longer 8' long so even if you pounded it down flush it's still too short to qualify as an electrode. If it qualifies as an electrode then you must use it.

 

[ShockaBrah]

You cannot prove that this is actually a ground rod. If it's 8' long then it need to be flush with the earth. If you cut off 4" is no longer 8' long so even if you pounded it down flush it's still too short to qualify as an electrode. If it qualifies as an electrode then you must use it.

I think you were right originally. I can't drive it down and I can't pull it up so for all intents and purposes it's just a piece of copper sticking through the concrete. I am just gonna cut it off flush with the concrete and spread some dust over it. Tell you what, that will certainly prove that it's not a ground rod, now it's just a rod in the ground.

 

[infinity]

I think you were right originally. I can't drive it down and I can't pull it up so for all intents and purposes it's just a piece of copper sticking through the concrete. I am just gonna cut it off flush with the concrete and spread some dust over it. Tell you what, that will certainly prove that it's not a ground rod, now it's just a rod in the ground.

I know that we tend to come up with a lot of what ifs, like is it 10' long? Is it actually ground rod? At the end of the day you've installed two new ground rods which qualify as the GES so getting rid of the old "whatever it is" is not a problem.

 

[petersonra]

I am confused by the second sentence. How would I prove it is no longer a ground rod by cutting it off? Wouldn't that just prove that it probably was a ground rod and that I cut it off?

if you cut it off so it no longer qualifies as a ground rod you don't have to use it. If it is a ground rod, you have to use it.