Idiot pool installers.......

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Well C2500 looks like your about to get into a fistfight or a lawsuit. I would step back a little and let the inspector and the idiot duke it out.
 
Fulthrotl said:
relying on them to do the pool work correctly isn't warranted in many
cases as well... :p .... after watching a number of pool contractors
do remodels, etc. i now understand why pool leaks around the skimmer are
so common. around so calif, shoddy work is pretty much the norm.

truth be told, i use #6 for everything, for a few reasons:

i always have a spool on the truck for services and whatnot.
it is far more difficult to break than #8, so it's physically more secure.
it cadwelds nicely. #8 is a bit thin and prone to scorching.

over half of the pool pumps i get service calls on aren't even grounded.

i just finished grounding a pool remodel in huntington beach, ca.

it amounts to:
two 8' stainless steel ground rods (SS is a local requirement)
burndy split bolt threaded lug replacing one of the motor bolts.
direct burial burndy ground clamp on the 1/2" existing bronze light conduit.
two fresh pool shell bond attachments, *not* using old #8 wire, cadwelded.
#6 copper from pool equipment to service, direct burial in dirt
#6 copper inside of light conduit, from wet niche lug to bond
all connections cadwelded, including to the ground rods.
3m wet niche potting compound used on the niche lug.

why so bulletproof?

15 years ago, i ended up giving expert testimony in a wrongful death
investigation by a grand jury in a pool light electrocution.

the person who did the work, and was subsequently indicted, and
convicted of manslaughter, went to prison, and lost over 2 million
dollars in the civil aspect of the proceeding. a 19 year old girl died.

how'd you like to explain to the district attorney how you saved $$$
by using the bare minimum? i've never had any reaction to my overkill
grounding other than satisfaction from an inspector.

that's why.

i've also had to prove to the inspector that my grounding is
sufficient, as in less than 25 ohms. my ground from the forming
shell to earth ground is usually about .3 ohms.

i've also had to prove connectivity on a filled commercial pool, or
the inspector was going to make the pool contractor remove and redo
all 5 lights. that can be accomplished by meggering the lamp bezel to
the ground rod, with a digital megger, and seeing how many volts
difference of potential there is, with 1000 volts applied. there shouldn't
be more than 1 volt difference of potential.



randy
Click to expand...

First off let me qualify my statement by saying that I do not wire pools so my limited knowledge of pool codes are from what I have heard in various code classes and not from personal experience, but.........

I was under the impression that you are supposed to bond pools not ground pools. Bonding all metal parts of a pool together to bring everything to the same potential. I was told that driving ground rods and "grounding" a pool is actually more dangerous than not, I have actually heard these installs referred to as "in-law pools" (the only people that you would want swimming in those death traps are your in-laws).

Like I said before, I am not a pool expert and would love to hear peoples opinions on this subject.
 
EBFD6 said:
Like I said before, I am not a pool expert and would love to hear peoples opinions on this subject.
Click to expand...

As far as the bonding I agree with you 100%, we bond pools for safety no real need to 'ground' them.

I don't think that adding grounding electrodes increases the danger but IMO additional grounding electrodes are entirely worthless.
 
EBFD6 said:
First off let me qualify my statement by saying that I do not wire pools so my limited knowledge of pool codes are from what I have heard in various code classes and not from personal experience, but.........

I was under the impression that you are supposed to bond pools not ground pools. Bonding all metal parts of a pool together to bring everything to the same potential. I was told that driving ground rods and "grounding" a pool is actually more dangerous than not, I have actually heard these installs referred to as "in-law pools" (the only people that you would want swimming in those death traps are your in-laws).

Like I said before, I am not a pool expert and would love to hear peoples opinions on this subject.
Click to expand...

duh. you are, of course correct. substitute the word bonding for the word
grounding in my earlier diatribe, and accept my apologies.

here's the deal with multiple ground rods... if they are not bonded
together, the possibility exists that there could be a ground loop
between them, leading to a difference of potential, and the possibility
of a shock hazard. if i am going to sink multiple ground rods, they are
going to have to be permanently bonded together for safety.

i have seen two ground rods driven into the ground 20 feet apart
in an electrical manufacturing facility, that had 25 volts difference
between them, and when hooked togeather, there was a 5 amp current
flow in the connecting wire. and neither ground rod was hooked to
anything else. so, what you are saying about in-law pools can be
correct if you haven't bonded *everything* together.


randy
 
Fulthrotl said:
here's the deal with multiple ground rods... if they are not bonded
together,
Click to expand...

Randy why are there rods being installed at a pool?

When would you ever have multiple grounding electrodes that where not bonded together?

As far as 5 amps of current between two rods only 25' apart it show seems like there may have been other things happening besides just distance and soil.
 
iwire said:
As far as 5 amps of current between two rods only 25' apart it show seems like there may have been other things happening besides just distance and soil.
Click to expand...
It takes an extreme earth current to create that kind of voltage gradient.
 
Pool and hot tub installers are for the most part IDIOTS. I've had numerous calls for hookups that the pool or spa place is calling for one to two guages lower than the actual wire size, then the customer craps a brick when they find out what it's really gonna cost. I get called because they want to save a few bucks on the hookup, then they wanna cry because of the cost. I think that installers of these products should be properly trained in the electrical end of it.
 
iwire said:
Randy why are there rods being installed at a pool?

When would you ever have multiple grounding electrodes that where not bonded together?

As far as 5 amps of current between two rods only 25' apart it show seems like there may have been other things happening besides just distance and soil.
Click to expand...

next phase of the project is a service upgrade. original grounding of the
house will need to be refurbished to make the local inspector happy.
so, the two ground rods and the 60' of #6 to reach the pump pad will
make a nice house ground. that's the reason.

i would *never* have multiple grounding electrodes that weren't
bonded together. i have seen pools that had a separate ground
rod driven and the pump motor "grounded" to that, rather than
bonded to all the pool metal, and ultimately the service,
and in addition to violating the code, it seems to be a very
dangerous practice to have two separate earth reference points.

the flow between the two separate ground rods existed in a
manufacturing environment, and was the subject of much
head scratching between two electrical engineers present.
the facility manufactured mylar capacitors, and there was a
ton of high voltage in the immediate area, up to 40 kv, and
frequencies varied between DC and 400 hz. maybe that had
something to do with it.

initially, the voltage was measured with a fluke bench meter,
and the thought was that it was a transient voltage, without
any oomph behind it, so a simpson moving coil meter was used,
and the voltage held. so we put a wire between the two rods
and put an analog amprobe around it and it came up at 5 amps.

the source of this emf was never determined, and i only mention
it here as anecdotal evidence that not all ground rods are
created equal. maybe sacrificing a chicken by the light of a
full moon was necessary to resolve the condition, but better
minds than mine went away perplexed.


randy
 
Update

Update

Well the pool light passed. The #8 was installed under protest. I checked everything and it appears fine.

However, the infinitely smart installer proceeded to tell me that the city has amended the code in that a #10 was not accepted. He then told me that different counties had different requirements.

In the state of SC we are using the 2006 IRC and operating out of the 2005 NEC for residential. Furthermore, it is my understanding that amendments are made at the state, not county or city level. (I may be wrong on this but don't think so)

Be that as it may, I find it interesting that the county is so lazy that they have not caught on to the #10's being potted to wet niche light housings.

On a brighter note, I will be having a word with the city inspector, (who used to work for the county and is friends with the head county inspector) and point their obvious mistake out.

By the way, how long has the #8 insulated wire been required when using other than metal conduit for a pool light?

Thanks,

c2500
 
Fulthrotl said:
it seems to be a very
dangerous practice to have two separate earth reference points.
Click to expand...

I don't see how, it happens between each service and the utility transformer serving it.

initially, the voltage was measured with a fluke bench meter,
and the thought was that it was a transient voltage, without
any oomph behind it, so a simpson moving coil meter was used,
and the voltage held. so we put a wire between the two rods
and put an analog amprobe around it and it came up at 5 amps.
Click to expand...

The source of this current was not the earth but what was connected to these rods. At least one of these rods was 'earthing' something that was not bonded to the rest of the electrical system.
 
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