IEC versus NEMA

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831

Senior Member
I?m encountering IEC equipment more and more, but I have no clue what the real differences are. I know that IEC is a European standard and NEMA is an American standard, but that?s it. I know that IEC stuff is known to be smaller, but is it less durable? Could anyone suggest some reading?
 

boater bill

Senior Member
Location
Cape Coral, Fl.
Just as the computer your are working on now is smaller than the ones 20 years ago, the IEC contactors are phyiscally smaller.

A rule of thumb I use:

Always size the IEC contactor for the maximum amp rating that the equavalent NEMA contactor max amp rating. the IEC will still be smaller but have higher capacity than the exact amp rated IEC contactor will be able to handle. Also verify if the IEC is rated to break the running load of the motor, Type 3 versus type 1. Type 1 is for holding current, not breaking current.

Hope this helps.
 

kingpb

Senior Member
Location
SE USA as far as you can go
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Engineer, Registered
Main difference:
IEC is performance based, NEMA is manufacturing based.

What this means:
With IEC, you can build it anyway you want too as long as it passes the tests. NEMA on the other hand, basically says that if you build it a certain way, it will perform a certain way.

MORE IMPORTANT:
Short circuit calculations for IEC are based on IEC 60909, which is the European methods, versus IEEE short circuit calculations. The impact is dramatic, and the short circuit numbers from the analysis mean completely different things. Therefore, you CAN NOT, and I will repeat, you CAN NOT use equipment with an IEC rating in place of NEMA rated equipment unless it has a dual rating. There is not a "factor' that can be applied to go from one to the other. Many IEEE papers have been written dispelling this myth.

A few years back, there was a fuse manufacturer going around and showing people, by use of a video, that the IEC equipment was cheap, and could not withstand the same fault current as NEMA equipment and that's why you needed to use fuses in place of a breaker.

The fact was, that they were showing you e.g. a motor starter that had say a 65kA rating in IEC, and a 65kA NEMA starter and the IEC equipment was destructing. The reason, 65kA in IEC does not mean the same as 65kA in NEMA.

More and more manufacturers are coming out with dual rating equipment. Many manufacturers, for example Schneider Electric a.k.a Square D, bought companies so they could specifically offer both lines. GE did the same thing. But the bottom line, is that if doesn't have a NEMA rating, it should not be UL approved, and therefore you should stay clear.
 

kingpb

Senior Member
Location
SE USA as far as you can go
Occupation
Engineer, Registered
boater bill said:
Just as the computer your are working on now is smaller than the ones 20 years ago, the IEC contactors are phyiscally smaller.

A rule of thumb I use:

Always size the IEC contactor for the maximum amp rating that the equavalent NEMA contactor max amp rating. the IEC will still be smaller but have higher capacity than the exact amp rated IEC contactor will be able to handle. Also verify if the IEC is rated to break the running load of the motor, Type 3 versus type 1. Type 1 is for holding current, not breaking current.

Hope this helps.

I would have to disagree. IEC contactors come in many many more sizes, and therfore the range is much tighter. As far as physically smaller, it has partly to do with the way IEC calculates the fault current. The 60909 method uses a decay, and therefore the current actually seen by the contacts is less then what IEEE would calculate. Unfortunately there are no cross references that allow you to switch between the equipment. You would need to run the proper analysis IEC or IEEE to determine the properly rated size, or always use at least dual rated equipment.
 

jim dungar

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Location
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PE (Retired) - Power Systems
831 said:
I?m encountering IEC equipment more and more, but I have no clue what the real differences are. I know that IEC is a European standard and NEMA is an American standard, but that?s it. I know that IEC stuff is known to be smaller, but is it less durable? Could anyone suggest some reading?

There are different answers for this question based on what type of product you are looking at.

IEC starters and contactors can be tested to the same UL HP ratings and operations standards as NEMA devices. The IEC wiring terminals are designed to be used with a minimum of 75C wire so they are smaller and run hotter than NEMA devices which are rated for 60C. IEC contactors are typically rated closely to UL HP values while NEMA devices are based on old automotive sizes which allowed "no thought" applications (a UL Listed IEC 10HP 480V contactor may be rated for 18A continuous while the equivalent NEMA Size 1 device is rated for 27A). But smaller does not always mean less durable (look at an HVAC contactor).

Comparing electical enclosures is a bit more complicated. Among other things UL/NEMA requires strength (i.e. thickness of materials) and IEC may not.

Personally I have no problem using IEC contactors. If I want equivalent performance I chose them based on continuous amps not just HP.
 

jim dungar

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Staff member
Location
Wisconsin
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PE (Retired) - Power Systems
kingpb said:
But the bottom line, is that if doesn't have a NEMA rating, it should not be UL approved, and therefore you should stay clear.

So are you saying the voluntary NEMA standards are more important than "certified" third party (i.e. UL) testing?

The fact is, an IEC device may have a UL tested fault rating even though it does not meet NEMA standards.
 

davidr43229

Senior Member
Location
Columbus, Oh
A few years back, there was a fuse manufacturer going around and showing people, by use of a video, that the IEC equipment was cheap, and could not withstand the same fault current as NEMA equipment and that's why you needed to use fuses in place of a breaker
http://www.bussmann.com/apen/pubs/NoDamage.asp
NEMA has a withstand / SCCR (stand-alone) of 10k amps usually, and you size it to FLA of the motor. Contacts and overloads are accesable & replaceable
IEC has a withstand / SCCR (stand-alone) of 5k amps, and you size it to the amount of total actuations. Contacts & overloads are not accesable or relaceable and are considered "throw-a-way". I have heard that AB now has replaceable contacts.
With both NEMA and IEC, there are "Type-2" coordinations, with "No-damage" UL listings. Type 2 Coordinations come from the IEC world of 60204-1, adopted by NFPA-79.
and is now in the NEC under article 670.
Just my $.02
 
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GeorgeB

ElectroHydraulics engineer (retired)
Location
Greenville SC
Occupation
Retired
831 said:
I?m encountering IEC equipment more and more, but I have no clue what the real differences are. I know that IEC is a European standard and NEMA is an American standard, but that?s it. I know that IEC stuff is known to be smaller, but is it less durable? Could anyone suggest some reading?

In addition to what others have said, usual overloads used with NEMA products are class 20, usual with IEC are class 10. Be aware of that if your motors are hard to start. In our opinion, the IEC frame motors were better protected by the class 10's; in addition, many incorporated thermocouples, a rarity to us at the time in smaller NEMA frame motors (our applications were normally 10HP and smaller). We experienced some nuisance tripping of IEC class 10 overloads starting NEMA motors that didn't occur with class 20 overloads, and which didn't APPEAR to overheat the motors.

Far ago and long away, we found that NEMA contactor ratings applied to plugging, reversing, and inching service. We found that IEC devices had to be oversized at least one size, often 2, to operate well in that environment.

We found that IEC contactors worked well at their rating MOST of the time, at lower cost, and at lower panel cost, because of smaller size. When we needed plugging and inching, we usually used NEMA rather than IEC. We used class 20 or class 30 overloads if we were plugging/inching.
 

augie47

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Tennessee
Occupation
State Electrical Inspector (Retired)
Iec

Iec

my experience mirrors GeorgeB's.
I might add, from my experience, that unless you carefully select you short-circuit/ground fault protection ahead of the IEC components you will find a higher ration of welded contacts and "self-destructed" units than you would find with comparable NEMA components.
 

brian john

Senior Member
Location
Leesburg, VA
For my two cents. I think the terminal blocks are a pain in the tushie, either my eyes are failing or the terminatal blocks are sized for pure frustration, as far as the contactors, when you take them apart the contacts just do not appear to by as substantial as a simialr sized NEMA contactor.
 

don_resqcapt19

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Illinois
Occupation
retired electrician
IEC starters work fine as long as you use them within their ratings. We tend to abuse our equipment here in the US and if you want to do that the IEC device will not take the same abuse as the NEMA device.
Don
 

Jraef

Moderator, OTD
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Location
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I work for Siemens in the US and we make all 3 types of contactors; NEMA, IEC and Definite Purpose. To reiterate what others have been saying, I usually sum it up for people like this:

NEMA starters were/are designed to take the absolute worst thing you can throw at them and survive with a reasonable amount of serviceable life that will likely exceed the equipment that it is controlling. The reasoning behind it was that auto makers would typically change out a complete production line in no more than 4 years, usually around 3 (now it's 5 or sure, but times have changed). That meant that they had to build a completely new line in parallel with the old one prior to the switchover, so to save their capital investment dollars they demanded starters that could be easily re-used without a lot of engineering effort every time. Engineers were expensive, electricians were cheap. That ended up being the NEMA design we love today because you can confidently re-use a NEMA starter for anything else in your plant without getting an engineer involved.

IEC starters were designed during the pre-WWII heydays of European expansion when engineering was a trade rather than a profession. So in Germany and France and England (who joined IEC much later actually), there were people with engineering expertise on every street corner, needing work. In fact, many governments in Europe after WWI had labor laws that essentially mandated that companies employ more people than were really necessary. So to save money on components (especially when most of their raw materials were imported), they used all that available engineering brainpower to decide on the exact amount of contactor necessary for each and every application; no more. They would "rationalize" every installation and process whereby they knew how many operations it was likely to see, how many times per hour or minute, starting current, likely voltage drop, etc. etc. etc. ad nauseum. The end result was that to properly select a contactor, it might take an engineer 1-2 hours on each machine application. If you had a machine with 4 or 5 motors in different uses, that added up to be a lot more engineering time than anyone would ever spend in the US. IEC contactors were also selected based on the expected life of the machine; there was no intent to re-use them somewhere else because you would still have an engineer rationalize it all over again anyway, so the contactor cost was relatively irrelevant. The "throw away" concept crept in in the late 70s only when automated production lines made them too inexpensive to bother fixing, but it should be noted that only the smallest of contactors are considered too cheap to fix. All large IEC contactors have replaceable contacts (at least those from reputable sources). IEC contactors today are still designed with that engineering intensive mentality in mind, although the selection process is a lot more streamlined now.

Definite Purpose contactors are a US concept that somewhat mirrors the IEC mentality, but is reserved for high volume OEM applications and requires even more engineering time because you must investigate and justify every tiny detailed aspect on your own, including short circuit calculations, wear time vs warranty of your end product etc. etc. So if you are designing a machine once and will make it thousands of times without redesigning it, DP made sense because the engineering expense was amortized by volume. DP contactors are terrible choices for one-off applications however because the ratings on the labels are even more application specific than IEC ratings are, so it's really easy to misapply them and end up with damaged equipment or a fire.
 
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S'mise

Senior Member
Location
Michigan
NEMA vs. IEC

NEMA vs. IEC

I take my hat off Kingpb, excellent post. I was unaware of the diference between IEEE and IEC 60909 for ss calcs in their group.
Call me old-school but I alway was of the opinion that IEC was complete junk. I have pitched hundreds of IEC starters ond Ol's in my day. Part of the reason was probably misapplication, But you cant deny that they are more fragile than NEMA starters and relays. The coils are are fragile too. Even when properly sized you cant beat the old NEMA starters, I have yet to see one melted. Changing out a pair of contacts is easier than a whole starter anyday.
 

petersonra

Senior Member
Location
Northern illinois
Occupation
engineer
We have used tens, maybe hundreds of thousands of IEC starters and contactors. The failure rate when properly applied is no worse then NEMA starters. We do not use them for plugging applications, but those are pretty uncommon anyway.
 

831

Senior Member
You guys are a gold mine... thanks. Here's specifically what I'm faced w/:

I designed a control panel for a little 3HP process (blender) motor. I've got a few bells and whistles thrown in to meet the owners program - cool. I take the drawing (schematic) to the guy that built their last panel and he starts talking about IEC "stuff" being used in the last panel he built for the same client.

In the commercial world, I always used NEMA equipment if for no other reason than suppliers understood it, whereas IEC was a different language. I saw fellow designers/project managers spending all sorts of effort on getting the IEC parts and pieces right while my NEMA stuff just showed up and worked.

That was a few years ago... I took a break from the electrical world and now I'm back and IEC is all over the place. The project I'm working on needs to be done and the owner already has IEC equipment. In the name of ease of maintenance, I'd like to give them fewer parts/pieces to stock, but not at the expense of safety/reliability.

This particular application sees these small motors running only a couple times a day for +- (60) seconds each time - very infrequent use.
 

GeorgeB

ElectroHydraulics engineer (retired)
Location
Greenville SC
Occupation
Retired
831 said:
You guys are a gold mine... thanks. Here's specifically what I'm faced w/:

I designed a control panel for a little 3HP process (blender) motor. I've got a few bells and whistles thrown in to meet the owners program - cool. I take the drawing (schematic) to the guy that built their last panel and he starts talking about IEC "stuff" being used in the last panel he built for the same client.

In the commercial world, I always used NEMA equipment if for no other reason than suppliers understood it, whereas IEC was a different language. I saw fellow designers/project managers spending all sorts of effort on getting the IEC parts and pieces right while my NEMA stuff just showed up and worked.

That was a few years ago... I took a break from the electrical world and now I'm back and IEC is all over the place. The project I'm working on needs to be done and the owner already has IEC equipment. In the name of ease of maintenance, I'd like to give them fewer parts/pieces to stock, but not at the expense of safety/reliability.

This particular application sees these small motors running only a couple times a day for +- (60) seconds each time - very infrequent use.
IMHO, no problem here with IEC. Is the mixer a high or low inertia load? Does the mixer start full or empty? If high inertia or fully loaded start, carefully evaluate starting time and possible class 20 overloads; otherwise, just go with it. Are you using fuses or one of those darn MCP thingys for instantaneous protection? Have you ensured your panel can handle available SCC? (concern applies with both NEMA and IEC) We always marked our panels with the maximum SCC the source could have; with just 3HP, you'll probably be fed with long enough #12 which will inherently keep you decently low, but I've been almost adjacent to the main 13,200:480 fed with 4/0 ... a different story.
 

kingpb

Senior Member
Location
SE USA as far as you can go
Occupation
Engineer, Registered
GeorgeB said:
Have you ensured your panel can handle available SCC? (concern applies with both NEMA and IEC) We always marked our panels with the maximum SCC the source could have; with just 3HP, you'll probably be fed with long enough #12 which will inherently keep you decently low, but I've been almost adjacent to the main 13,200:480 fed with 4/0 ... a different story.

Apparently, you did not understand that there is NO comparison to IEC short circuit ratings and IEEE short circuit ratings. So, based on that, what IEC short circuit rating of the equipment are you going to use? Have you performed an IEC60909 calculation to determine this? If there is not a dual rating on the "IEC" equipment, which I assume there is not, otherwise you would not be calling it an IEC starter, then you are possibly using a piece of equipment, not properly rated for the application.

IEC KA ratings DO NOT equal IEEE KA ratings...............................

I can not say it any plainer then that.
 

jim dungar

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Location
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kingpb said:
IEC KA ratings DO NOT equal IEEE KA ratings...............................

True, but you make it sound like it is impossible for an IEC device to have to have two different sets of short circuit ratings.

Square D circuit breakers carry both UL Listed and IEC ratings on their nameplates as do Telemecanique contactors. This way a single device can be applied worldwide.
 

kerajam

Member
We've had significantly more incidents of trouble call repairs related to burned IEC contactors than the NEMA equivilant. All things considered, I've used a rule of thumb of replacing with one size up.
 

petersonra

Senior Member
Location
Northern illinois
Occupation
engineer
kerajam said:
We've had significantly more incidents of trouble call repairs related to burned IEC contactors than the NEMA equivalent. All things considered, I've used a rule of thumb of replacing with one size up.

We have not had any significant number of IEC contactors fail, but we mostly use fairly small ones, 30 hp and under, typically. maybe there is more of an issue with larger sizes.

IEC contactors do seem, at least anecdotally, to be more susceptible to failure due to electrical system issues (like short circuits). Stuff that might not kill a NEMA starter may well destroy an IEC starter. I am not sure increasing the size changes anything if that is what damaged it in the first place.

There does seem to be more of an issue with undersizing IEC starters for some reason though. I have seen more than one case where IEC starters were undersized. I can't recall seeing that with a NEMA starter. I suspect someone used the amp rating of the contactor to size it rather than the HP rating. Since most motors, especially smaller ones, are not normally fully loaded, you may well get away with this approach, but it is not advisable.
 
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