If You Where The Inspector

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Jim W in Tampa said:
Inspecters that go beyond there job title could find themself in court.Do your job and nothing more.If job is enforce nec then stop there.Yours is not to judge price ,quality or anything else.Soon as you cross that line your open to being sued.
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Jim,

No big deal, but I have noticed from your previous posts in the past, that you have a problem with inspectors and constantly condemn them. Let me know if there is anything I can do.
 
I have had a couple of brand new breakers that did not work.

I disagree with the inspector discussing price or materials with the customer. Providing the materials and installation meet code. Even discussing a violation with the customer can become a large problem. I try to meet code on all my installations, but still have violations that I miss on occasion. I don't want the customer to have less respect for me as an electrician just because of a failed inspection. Depending on the customer if they get the impression your trying to rip them off no explaining will make things better.

I would hope my inspector would call me with any concerns first.
 
If an Electrical Inspector in VA is not happy with the use of used equipment they would cite the following under the VA-USBC

112.4 Used material and equipment. Used materials,
equipment and devices may be approved provided they
have been reconditioned, tested or examined and found
to be in good and proper working condition and
acceptable for use by the building official.
 
Is existing material really "used material"? Why is re-installing the existing branch circuit breakers any different than connecting the existing branch circuits to the new panel? Wouldn't reconnecting a feeder to an existing subpanel also be "reusing" breakers in that existing sub that you're not doing any work in? Gotta draw a line someplace, and if I get gigged for reinstalling something that otherwise already existed, me and somebody are going to the ring.
 
lol...I dont mind going to the Ring myself....;)

However, It is used in many areas of the state to enforce issues where the inspector does not want old, used equipment from being used in new construction. ( we see it ALOT in the Richmond Area as well )

Granted you have to use good judgement but as I said it is written that way in the Statewide Building Code for a reason......allows the Building Official to make the call if needed.

Now.....speak to the manufacturer and they will more than not ALWAYS say this is not a good practice because why put your property in the hands of a used piece of equipment.....but alas to each his own.

You just have to know where to apply it and be tactful about it.
 
mdshunk said:
Is existing material really "used material"? Why is re-installing the existing branch circuit breakers any different than connecting the existing branch circuits to the new panel? Wouldn't reconnecting a feeder to an existing subpanel also be "reusing" breakers in that existing sub that you're not doing any work in? Gotta draw a line someplace, and if I get gigged for reinstalling something that otherwise already existed, me and somebody are going to the ring.
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Branch circuits do not have moving parts

Circuit breakers do have moving parts
 
tryinghard said:
In my curiosity I overloaded a 20A breaker 125%, with some heaters, I left this resistive load on for 3 minutes and the breaker did not trip. I'm not sure how true it is but I have heard if a breaker has tripped 2 or 3 times it may not have correct OCP and should be changed.
?
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I don't know if there is a standard trip that all breakers must meet, or if each is different. From a Square D QO curve I have, it would take anywhere from about 160 to 1000+ seconds to trip a breaker on a 25% overload. And I belive this is at 40C. It will take even longer if the breaker is below 40C.

I think you need to do a 200% load test, which might trip in a minute or so.

I would also think it matters what kind of tripping a breaker has been exposed to that would affect its life. I would expect a short circuit to be more damaging than a thermal trip.
 
Well...here is my response to the Square D flyer posted by Joe T. I hear Square D making alot of misleading statements in that flyer....Obviously they did not read the Magnusson-Moss Warranty Act or understand that UL Classified breakers by Eaton will not void any warranty in the Square D Panel.....in fact the warranty of the UL Classified breakers are 15 years by themselves.

Original Panelboard Warranty
Original panelboard manufacturers may claim that the
use of breakers, other than those specified, voids their
warranty. However, the Magnusson-Moss Warranty
Act prevents manufacturers from making warranties
contingent upon the use of their replacement parts, as
long as the third-party part is safe. Since the safety has
been proven by UL, the panelboard manufacturer?s
warranty is still effective when you choose a CL or CHQ
breaker.

The Cutler-Hammer business warrants its CL and CHQ
Direct Replacement Circuit Breakers to be free from
failures due to defects in material or workmanship for
15 years from the date of purchase. Additionally, should
a failure of a CL or CHQ breaker occur that would cause
damage to the loadcenter in which it is installed, the
Cutler-Hammer business would repair or replace the
loadcenter with an equivalent product upon delivery of
the damaged components.

FYI...I have a replacement chart if anyone wants it.
 
I personally think the issue is being over examined.....the problem is using USED equipment/devices in a NEW installation that would invoke the USBC reference I posted.

Personally I think it is POOR taste to do a new installation and use old devices...but to each his own.....I dont re-install old product and let the consumer think it is new product....Just my view.

My biggest concern and when I do INDEED use 112.4 of the Virginia Statewide Building Code is when they upgrade a 60A panel to a 100A or 200A panel and use an OLD panel with KO fillers in it and breaker fillers and such....we just dont allow it...period....but alas to each his own
 
radiopet said:
My biggest concern and when I do INDEED use 112.4 of the Virginia Statewide Building Code is when they upgrade a 60A panel to a 100A or 200A panel and use an OLD panel with KO fillers in it and breaker fillers and such....we just dont allow it...period....but alas to each his own
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How do you put KO seals in a panel?

How can they refuse to lest me use a cabinet as a JB?

I posted this in another thread but it applies here as well. :smile:

Here is a cabinet as covered by Article 312
10406_300.jpg




This is a panelboard as covered by Article 408, it is missing only the dead front.
PanelGuts.jpg





Here is a panelboard in a cabinet as covered by Article 312 and 408
1106523920.jpg
 
Pierre C Belarge said:
Branch circuits do not have moving parts

Circuit breakers do have moving parts
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I think you missed Marc's point. :smile:

I replace the service in a large building, I reconnect the existing feeders to the new equipment, at the other end of those existing feeders are existing breakers and I reused them.
 
suemarkp said:
I don't know if there is a standard trip that all breakers must meet, or if each is different. From a Square D QO curve I have, it would take anywhere from about 160 to 1000+ seconds to trip a breaker on a 25% overload. And I belive this is at 40C. It will take even longer if the breaker is below 40C.

I think you need to do a 200% load test, which might trip in a minute or so.

I would also think it matters what kind of tripping a breaker has been exposed to that would affect its life. I would expect a short circuit to be more damaging than a thermal trip.
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Mark,

Good points, this makes sense, thanks
 
As usual iwire you take it beyond the rhelm of normal intent........read my post.

if they are using an OLD panel they had laying around that happens to be a 200A panel...and they are doing a NEW service upgrade and intend to use the older panel with missing KO's that have been plugged and it is in crappy shape.....I believe the USBC 112.4 gives me all the allowance I need....

If we are speaking of old circuit breakers being re-used in new installations well.....go for it......just tell your client your intent.....

Frankly speaking...Opinions are like A***oles....everyones got one.
 
Pierre C Belarge said:
Branch circuits do not have moving parts

Circuit breakers do have moving parts
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Uh... so? If the customer wanted to, they could not have the panel replaced and continue to use those breakers for another 100 years. The light switches in the place have moving parts too. Is somebody going to make me replace all the light switches when I reconnect the lighting branch circuits to the new panel, since they're "used"?

I'd prefer to put in new breakers too, but as I've said before, there is an installation method for every budget. I serve everyone from the guttermost to the uttermost. The only qualification is that they be able to pay the bill. If reusing breakers when doing the heavy up will bring the price into their range, I'm happy to do it.
 
Hey! I just realized that every breaker in my panel is used! I'm gonna sue somebody! :roll:

When estimating an upgrade, if the existing panel is a modern one, and/or the breakers within are still current models, and it makes economic sense, I will offer the customer the option.
 
How do you know how many times that breaker has tripped, how hot it is has got? Point being, if it is a critical part of the electrical system don't take chances. Never reuse something that you have no knowledge of, after all, how much does the breaker cost???????Don't be a cheap ass, do it right.
 
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