If You Where The Inspector

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sandsnow said:
Like I said I agree up to a point. That point is where a crime is being committed. I don't care if you knowingly paid $15,000 dollars for a new 100amp service that is worth $1500. If you are charging for new breakers and installing old breakers that is a crime. IF IF IF IF I find out I will take action. I DO NOT go poking around. If some little old lady whom I just failed shows me her bid for new breakers and cannot understand why she failed (because the old breakers were the wrong type), then we got a problem.
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I don't believe I've ever seen a bid that specified new breakers. But I'll dang sure make sure not to specify in your neck of the woods.
 
Some bids I've seen say something along the lines of X-15A, X-20A etc though others I have seen just say replacement of or something along those lines. It's all in the writing, I guess. I've even seen others that say reuse (if possible) existing breakers.
 
MF Dagger said:
I don't believe I've ever seen a bid that specified new breakers. But I'll dang sure make sure not to specify in your neck of the woods.
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I've worked on at least a hundred if not 300 projects that specified ALL new materials and equipment be supplied. You find that in pretty much every goverment job that has a spec book written for the job. Some jobs I have done required us to submit lading? (sp) sheets and keep the materials locked up in bonded warehouses that had two sets of locks. One set of locks we had the keys for, the other set of locks the customer had the keys for. Every single wirenut and 6-32 screw was supposed to be brand new from the supplier identified in the contract.
 
Breakers

Breakers

I'm a inspector and it is none of my business what the homeowner and the electrical contractor have negotiated in their contract! If the breakers are listed for the panel they are being installed in that's all the responsibility I have other than any other local ammendments! Upgrade panel, install GFCI's in Baths, garage and outside. Arc fault in bedrooms...that's all I have the authority to require! Cut and dried!

Mule
 
sandsnow said:
I'm good with that up to a point. I will not stand by and watch some poor little old lady be ripped off by some fly by night contractor. Extreme example I guess, but I hope my point comes across.

It is just the right thing to do.
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would installing used listed and labeled breakers be "ripping off"?

At one time, did the code require equipment to be new?

Marty
 
Jurisdiction here actually has an Amendment for this Issue

Jurisdiction here actually has an Amendment for this Issue

Here in Clark County (Nevada), we have an Amendment to the NEC to deal specifically with this issue. It is added as NEW subsection (E) of 110.12:

"(E) Old, Used or Damaged Material and Equipment. Old, Used or Damaged Material and Equipment shall not be installed or used in any work without prior approval of the Building Official or designated representative."

As a practicing EE and licensed contractor, I can see the point of ensuring the installation of properly working equipment. To re-use breakers in a panel-to-panel swap makes financial sense (and in most cases is not a problem). But how should we deal with the less than scrupulous contractors that re-use equipment that has been water damaged (transformers and panels in floods - Katrina is a great example), panels subjected to water and heat in a fire, etc.?

Ultimately, the contractor is responsible if the equipment fails (you touched it, it must be your fault - you know you have heard this from your customers). How long is the warranty you are providing on the equipment you are re-using? And is it worth going back to cover your work for free? Liability should be the greatest concern.
 
mdshunk said:
You're under the very mistaken impression that there's some sort of inherent danger in re-installing existing circuit breakers onto a new panelboard bus. You'd be hard pressed to find any documentation to back that up. The existence of a testing procedure is not, in itself, a requirement that such testing even need be performed.
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As in my previous post, re-use of small breakers may pose little risk to the end user (home-owner). We've all heard the term "weak-breaker", one that nuisance trips due to heat, or other problems that are site specific. As a GE Field Engineer (one who actually tested breakers and switchgear), I would ask anyone who re-uses breakers if they have kept track of where the devices came from (to the guy with the buckets of fuses and breakers - these devices do have set life-expectancy when they trip and clear faults multiple times, fuses do have burn-in from high inrush currents that are close to the fault clearing value). I would ask, do you know how many times the breaker has cleared or tripped due to a fault?

One impact on a breaker after it clears a fault is the scoring and deteriation of the contacts due to the arc and heat created from the fault. When the contacts come back together for normal service, the surface area is affected, and the breaker may run hot. For small breakers (20A in a residence, this may not present a serious problem). However, say for a 2000A breaker, the contact surface is much larger, heat load is much greater (and generally less diverse). For normal servicing of these size breakers, we perform "conductance" tests to ensure the contacts have a very low resistance (in the micro-Ohms).

I say, use caution when re-using equipment, as you are assuming the liability for its proper operation when doing so.
 
Ok kinda spinning a slightly different thread but along the same lines as your discussion. We all agree that the AHJ has no business discussing our bids with the customer. Now why is it for me to get a permit I have to give them an estimated cost and time for the job? Wouldn't that be the same as discussing financial matters with our customers? Just curious about that.
 
inspector141 said:
would installing used listed and labeled breakers be "ripping off"?

At one time, did the code require equipment to be new?

Marty
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I'm frustrated by comments on my position. I'm not changing my position. Many who have looked at it did not really read it. Key word - CRIME
 
mh183 said:
contractor replaces main panel and puts the old breakers in to the new panel . the inspector asks when checking the service are all the breakers new?
the electrical contractor states that he is trying to save the home owner as much as he can, so he reused the old explained it to the homeowner. the inspector raises the question, did he say he is making you a special price and reusing the old breakers which is a code violation. the home owner said he is an old friend and said in the beginning he would do his best pricing but did not reference the old breakers.
sounds simple just tell the electrical contractor to install only new material .
the home owner will just be hit with the bill, the contractor will say he tried to help but it did not work
and the homeowner with finance l issues gets hurt
what would you do
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Reuse of parts is not a code issue as long as they are suitable and undamaged.
 
srblx said:
. Now why is it for me to get a permit I have to give them an estimated cost and time for the job? Wouldn't that be the same as discussing financial matters with our customers? Just curious about that.
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I am assuming that is because the permit fee is based on the cost of the work being performed.
 
sandsnow said:
I'm good with that up to a point. I will not stand by and watch some poor little old lady be ripped off by some fly by night contractor. Extreme example I guess, but I hope my point comes across.

It is just the right thing to do.
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It is NOT the right thing to do.

The 'task' is outside of the inspectors authority. However, if he suspects consumer fraud, then it is his duty to report it to the proper agency, city attorney, etc.
 
weressl said:
It is NOT the right thing to do.

The 'task' is outside of the inspectors authority. However, if he suspects consumer fraud, then it is his duty to report it to the proper agency, city attorney, etc.
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Do you have a copy of my performance objectives? Is there some dark overlord of all inspectors I am unaware of?

How do all these people know what my duties are?

It has nothing to do with my 'tasks" as an inspector. It has to do with being a citizen and reporting a crime.
 
sandsnow said:
It has nothing to do with my 'tasks" as an inspector. It has to do with being a citizen and reporting a crime.
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You lost me, maybe I missed a post a or two.

What was the crime?

If I recall the question was simply about reusing breakers and assuming the customer was not promised new breakers I see no crime.
 
sandsnow said:
Do you have a copy of my performance objectives? Is there some dark overlord of all inspectors I am unaware of?

How do all these people know what my duties are?

It has nothing to do with my 'tasks" as an inspector. It has to do with being a citizen and reporting a crime.
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Wow, a bit dramatic dont you think?

I don't know if anyone is saying you personally, but I agree that in general as inspectors go you should mind your business when it comes to the financial aspect of the job.
 
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