Igniter for Instant HW heater

[jwelectric]

Re: Igniter for Instant HW heater

Originally posted by jimwalker:
I see nothing wrong in the use of the plug and cord.I say he needs to site the number and then we go from there.It's not your job to show where it says you can,it's his job to say why you can't.Personally i see no need for dedicated circuit.Giving in to him is a mistake.Either he sites the code number or he passes it.Perhaps get the mfg to e mail you a letter saying it is ok.I can not see viewing this any differant than a gas dryer,microwave,disposa,dish washer,etc.Where exactly is this water heater located ?

Rejected in violation of 422.16 Flexible Cords.

 

[jimwalker]

Re: Igniter for Instant HW heater

"Is the appliance designed to permit removal or repair? "
what appliance is not designed to be repaired ?I see nothing saying where the cord is installed.

 

[jwelectric]

Re: Igniter for Instant HW heater

Originally posted by jimwalker:
"Is the appliance designed to permit removal or repair? "
what appliance is not designed to be repaired ?I see nothing saying where the cord is installed.

422.16 Flexible Cords.
(A) General. Flexible cord shall be permitted (1) for the connection of appliances to facilitate their frequent interchange or to prevent the transmission of noise or vibration or (2) to facilitate the removal or disconnection of appliances that are fastened in place, where the fastening means and mechanical connections are specifically designed to permit ready removal for maintenance or repair and the appliance is intended or identified for flexible cord connection.

The equipment that this rule will allow to be cord and plug connected are listed under this section all others are not allowed just as the 30 gallon water heater.

 

[mc5w]

Re: Igniter for Instant HW heater

Hardwiring an appliance that comes from the factory with a cord and plug usually VOIDS the UL listing. There are a few exceptions such as appliances that come with hardwiring directions and a lot of electric dryers and stoves have a knockout for hooking up NM cable which requires a smaller knockout than a cord and plug.

In the case of dishwahers you actually want to set up the plumbing and wiring so that you can pull the unit out for replacement of the motor and so forth. I know someone who had to cut a hole in the ceiling of his basement in order to replace the motor! This had to be done very carefully so as not to cut into the wiring harness and plumbing. In this particular case the plumber has hard plumbed this dishwasher with both the supply and drain pipes right in front of the motor.

 

[sfav8r]

Re: Igniter for Instant HW heater

Originally posted by jwelectric:

Originally posted by jimwalker:
I see nothing wrong in the use of the plug and cord.I say he needs to site the number and then we go from there.It's not your job to show where it says you can,it's his job to say why you can't.Personally i see no need for dedicated circuit.Giving in to him is a mistake.Either he sites the code number or he passes it.Perhaps get the mfg to e mail you a letter saying it is ok.I can not see viewing this any differant than a gas dryer,microwave,disposa,dish washer,etc.Where exactly is this water heater located ?

Rejected in violation of 422.16 Flexible Cords.

The almost identical Bosche model comes with a pre-installed cord. Virtually nobody would have a problem with that unit being plugged into a receptacle. The unit installed in this house for practical purposes is the same except the cord was field-installed. I realize the NEC may view them differently as a result of the pre-instlled cord, but I would make the point that their acceptance of the pre-installed unit pretty much eliminates the argument of 422.16 because the installations are otherwise identical. If the Bosch unit is considered easy enough to remove for service and repair, how can it be argued that this unit isn't? \

 

[jwelectric]

Re: Igniter for Instant HW heater

Originally posted by sfav8r
The almost identical Bosche model comes with a pre-installed cord. Virtually nobody would have a problem with that unit being plugged into a receptacle. The unit installed in this house for practical purposes is the same except the cord was field-installed. I realize the NEC may view them differently as a result of the pre-instlled cord, but I would make the point that their acceptance of the pre-installed unit pretty much eliminates the argument of 422.16 because the installations are otherwise identical. If the Bosch unit is considered easy enough to remove for service and repair, how can it be argued that this unit isn't? \

It is so simple. The model that you have mentioned comes with a listed cord and the model in the original post comes with out one.
422.16 addresses those that come with out a cord and states that it is required to be hard wired.
The one you have mentioned comes with a cord and is listed for cord and plug connection.
We have a instant hot in the barn that came with a cord and plug. I chose it so that in the winter time it could be unplugged and drained with out the chance that the breaker would be turned on again.

It is not the job of the inspector to say that some come with cords so all should be allowed to be cord connected it is his job to enforce the code whether we like or not.
Being this appliance is not one of the types listed in 422.16 it will be required to be hard wired.

 

[jim dungar]

Re: Igniter for Instant HW heater

I now agree with jwelectric, 422.16 require that "the appliance is intended or identified for flexible cord connection". So as much as I like to think of the valid reason for removal, I cannot add a cord if if the manufacturer doe not tell me I can.

mc5w,

There is absolutely nothing you can do in the field that would "void a UL listing". The UL label says the device met all of the applicable listing requirements when it left the factory.

There are many things you can do in the field that will clearly violate the manufacturer's instructions (i.e install up side down). And there are many things that can be done that may be in conflict with UL listing requirements and are not addressed in the manufacturer's instruction (i.e. use non-raintight EMT connectors). And there are things that are simply not addressed by any one except the AHJ (i.e. replace a damaged cord end).

 

[jimwalker]

Re: Igniter for Instant HW heater

OK i can accept that perhaps it was not listed to use a cord.Now tell me just how did the inspector know this ? Did you leave the paper work laying there?

 

[jwelectric]

Re: Igniter for Instant HW heater

Originally posted by jimwalker:
OK i can accept that perhaps it was not listed to use a cord.Now tell me just how did the inspector know this ? Did you leave the paper work laying there?

It didn't come with one already on it.

 

[LarryFine]

Re: Igniter for Instant HW heater

Originally posted by jwelectric:

Originally posted by jimwalker:
OK i can accept that perhaps it was not listed to use a cord.Now tell me just how did the inspector know this ? Did you leave the paper work laying there?

It didn't come with one already on it.

But that's already been eliminated as a reason like dishwashers and disposers. If the water heater instructions mention a cord as a wiring option, I'd consider it legal.

 

[jimwalker]

Re: Igniter for Instant HW heater

Ok but what i am confused about is how would an inspector know if it was not allowed to put a cord on it ? Do they look it up in a book or something that says brand xxx model number xxx allows a cord and model zzz does not.Just because it's not a factory cord what makes them so sure that this model does not permit it ?I know inspectors are sharp at finding things but this is hard to believe.

 

[iwire]

Re: Igniter for Instant HW heater

Originally posted by jimwalker:
Ok but what i am confused about is how would an inspector know if it was not allowed to put a cord on it ?

The point is you as the installer must know if the unit can be cord and plug connected.

It is your responsibility to do the right thing regardless of what the inspector may catch or not.

 

[jimwalker]

Re: Igniter for Instant HW heater

No argument there Bob.But my question is not about my knowing ,it is how does the inspector know.

 

[jwelectric]

Re: Igniter for Instant HW heater

Originally posted by jimwalker:
No argument there Bob.But my question is not about my knowing ,it is how does the inspector know.

Yes he will know by the fact that if it was allowed to have a cord then one would have been installed when it was bought.

 

[jimwalker]

Re: Igniter for Instant HW heater

"Yes he will know by the fact that if it was allowed to have a cord then one would have been installed when it was bought."
Maybe and maybe not.Lots of appliances are not corded but can be.Garbage disposal are one of them that i wish did have the cord on it.

 

[electricmanscott]

Re: Igniter for Instant HW heater

Originally posted by jwelectric:
Yes he will know by the fact that if it was allowed to have a cord then one would have been installed when it was bought.

Not true.
As Jim mentioned garbage disposals, also dishwashers do not have cords. Ranges and dryers don't either.

 

[George Stolz]

Re: Igniter for Instant HW heater

Originally posted by electricmanscott:

Originally posted by jwelectric:
Yes he will know by the fact that if it was allowed to have a cord then one would have been installed when it was bought.

Not true.
As Jim mentioned garbage disposals, also dishwashers do not have cords. Ranges and dryers don't either.

All the appliances you mention are specifically mentioned in 422, though.

Coincidentally, a co-worker called me Friday about a very similar predicament. There were two instant hot water heaters, one for floor heat (

One item I am going to look into, is what the actual designation is for a disposal cord is, and seeing if 400 has something to say about it's use in this application.

 

[jwelectric]

Re: Igniter for Instant HW heater

Originally posted by electricmanscott:

Originally posted by jwelectric:
Yes he will know by the fact that if it was allowed to have a cord then one would have been installed when it was bought.

Not true.
As Jim mentioned garbage disposals, also dishwashers do not have cords. Ranges and dryers don't either.

Every appliance mentioned above that is allowed to be cord and plug connected such as, dishwasher, disposal, trash compactor, hood fan, and range are allowed to be by the sections of the code. 422.16, 422.33

I cannot find a section that will allow a water heater to be cord and plug connected unless it comes with one already on it.

I have done a Google search of the instant hot water heaters. None of the ones I have found show in their spec sheets where a cord is allowed to be installed in the field.
I have found some that have the cord already installed on them and they are listed for cord and plug installations.

 

[jwelectric]

Re: Igniter for Instant HW heater

Here are the installation instructions for a Takagi Model T-KJr. One of the smaller ones.


- 13 -
ELECTRICAL CONNECTIONS
WARNING: Follow the electrical code
requirements of the local authority having
jurisdiction. In the absence of such
requirements, follow the latest edition of the
National Electrical Code ANSI/NFPA 70 in the
U.S. or the latest edition of CSA C22.1
Canadian Electrical Code, Part 1, in Canada.
The heater must be electrically grounded. Do
not attach the ground wire to either the gas or
the water piping. Plastic pipe or dielectric
unions may isolate the water heater
electrically.
CAUTION: When servicing or replacing parts
within the T-KJR, label all wires prior to
disconnection to facilitate an easy and error
free reconnection. Wiring errors can cause
improper and dangerous operation. Verify
proper operation after servicing.
The FLASH T-KJR water heater requires AC
120V 60 Hz electrical power supply that is
properly grounded.
? An on/off switch controlling the main power
to the T-KJR must be provided for service
reasons;
? Connect the power supply to the T-KJR
exactly as shown in the wiring diagram;
A green screw is provided in the junction box
to ground the connection.

I do not see where a cord is allowed. Check out the site for yourself
here.

 

[iwire]

Re: Igniter for Instant HW heater

Originally posted by jwelectric:
I do not see where a cord is allowed.

I do not see where a cord is not allowed.

I agree with you on this Mike.