I'm mad!!!!!

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lady sparks lover

Senior Member
I'm so angry....

I currenlty work at an AE firm, which before I came strictly consists of Architects. Well, to make a long story short, the Architects feel like Electrical Design is only worth 9%, the Mechanical Design is worth only 15% of the entire design fee based on the installation cost. :(


Lady :mad:

[ April 23, 2004, 03:46 PM: Message edited by: lady sparks lover ]
 
Re: I'm mad!!!!!

I think most of us can tell the same story but with different circumstances. My opinion is that the electrical industry is the hardest to understand, and therefore the least respected by the layman. You think it would be the other way around. Most people have know idea what it takes to design, fabricate, install, and maintain electrical systems, yet have the most exuberant expectations of them.

My suggestion would be to put together a nice proposal for your request, no, demand for more of the budget. Show your strengths and hide your weakness. Establish a case history of time and envolvement in past projects to show the extent of your work and skills.

Or quit and start your own business. That is what I did! ;)
 
Re: I'm mad!!!!!

The distribution of hours for a project can happen many ways. Most of the time, it is based on the % of the installation cost. We have similar arguments with the other trades in our office, Arch, Mech, Fire Prot, Plumb and structural. We "hem and haw" back and forth about the expected cost of construction, even before we really design anything to be sure we get our fair share of design hours.
Luckily, many projects we design end up with 25-50% electrical hours, since our work is E/A not A/E. For a data center project, luckily the architects are relegated to put a door here, or move that wall there and pushing papers.
 
Re: I'm mad!!!!!

No problem on the venting!! I hope you feel better.
I just finished a bid on a job that I won't get. The customer had an architect make the drawings. No problem--yet! The arch added some lighting, a few outlets and the 220 for the A/Cs. THAT'S IT!! The customer told me that what I proposed to do wasn't on the drawing so I did NOT have to do it because the arch didn't draw it in!?!
I pointed out that this was an architectural drawing NOT and electrical drawing. The customer is already "brain trained" by the arch.
I told customer to compare my bid and the other ECs bids. If he has any questions call me!
The inspector will walk in to the building and red tag it as soon as he gets a chance. This is the prverbial building that was "wired" by someone working off a bar tab!!
Whoever gets it will earn their $$
 
Re: I'm mad!!!!!

Cheat :D Sometimes "doing the right thing" is really quite a challenge. :p
 
Re: I'm mad!!!!!

Speaking for The Washington DC Metro area. HVAC service companies charge $10.00 plus more an hour for service while their technicians make less per hour on average than an electrcian.
 
Re: I'm mad!!!!!

You're right Tonyi, however....it seems that everything is over budget everytime, from the cost of designing, to the cost of building.

I will just resign myself to the fact that, I need to stop having a conscience, and throw all I can on the drawings, and make the architects happy!! Code or no code, it's all about the money. :(
 
Re: I'm mad!!!!!

No problem Lady, throw away your ethics, dignity, and self respect. Send your degree back, and become a politician.

Honestly, hang in there, the human race needs you, poor or rich.


Best regards; Bennie
 
Re: I'm mad!!!!!

Patricia, you will have your day, remember that.

In the mean time your ethics are all that matter, even in what seems to be a useless strugle.

Since it felt so good the first time let me say it again, You will have your day! ;)

Roger
 
Re: I'm mad!!!!!

Don't worry - after a few years you're going to get a much better intuitive feel for what a project will require and will get to the point where you'll almost be able to almost envision the whole project in your mind (at least the significant design parts).

Experience and intuition aren't something taught at school. After 20 years in the computer engineering biz I got to the point where I could eyeball a project and make a 5 minute off the cuff estimate that usually wound up being within 5-10% of what the thing would actually come in at when it finally shipped.

Don't commit to paper TOO soon either. That can cause a lot of wasted cycles. If you can get to where you can "grok" (to use a Robert Heinlein term) the major aspects of the project in your mind, initial revisions there will happen a lot faster. Some people can do this sort of mental model thing easier than others. Being left handed seems to be a significant factor. Lefties are notably better at spacial relationships and visualization than righties (I'm a leftie BTW). Righties tend to be better at taking a linear "plow through it" approach, the lefties will often conjure a whole amost fully formed in a "big bang" kinda manner.
 
Re: I'm mad!!!!!

just an electrician here but its the same story everywhere, for everyone, all the time. BY the time you get what you want it doesn't make that much difference to you. Find a way to be satisfied with in yourself, and or move on to something more in line with your vision. I hope thats not to philosophical for this forum.
 
Re: I'm mad!!!!!

Lady,

I have worked for oem's since graduating from college in '95, I'm a Penn Stater too. The pressure to find $ or cut cost can be extremely high. However, no amount of money will make it worth it for me to find myself sitting in the witness stand, facing a court room full of survivors, or families who lost loved ones and saying that I did what I did because it saved money for my company. It is good to vent, because it allows our true spirit to remain, rather than being poisoned and compromising. I knew it was time to leave my last job when the plant manager responded be informed that was equipment shipping in violation of code with, "it would cost a lot of money to fix it, the customers don't know about it, and no one has gotten hurt." He forgot to add YET to the last statement. The worst thing is the plant engineer responsible faced not disciplinary action for his oversights.

Tony
 
Re: I'm mad!!!!!

Figure out ways to automate redundant tasks. If you are using autocad, then customize it so that drafting takes less time. If you are using excel for calcs, get your templates set up so you are not wasting time recreating stuff. Automation is the key.
The one place I worked it was a MEP firm. They did a lot of schools. Their fee was generally 4% of the MEP construction costs. Generally architects get from 6-10% of the entire cost of the project. I am not exactly sure how that translates down to percentages for design fees in your situation. The one other thing you can emphasize is that you have many systems to design. You have lighting, fire alarms, power distribution, emergency generators, UPS, etc.
Find a job where you get paid for every hour you work.
 
Re: I'm mad!!!!!

4% is the low end of the scale for MEP fees jschultz but is pretty typical for school work. ladysparks, are you saying that you want 15% of the total design fee for just electrical work? I think 15% is too much but 10 to 12% would be good. Of course the type of project and scope of the electrical work is a determining factor. You are not alone. Most engineers in the A/E enviroment struggle with this. You are going to have to bring them along slowly if at all.
 
Re: I'm mad!!!!!

Originally posted by hbendillo:
4% is the low end of the scale for MEP fees jschultz but is pretty typical for school work. ladysparks, are you saying that you want 15% of the total design fee for just electrical work? I think 15% is too much but 10 to 12% would be good.
Click to expand...
You 15% would be ideal, but my design included lighting design. Most electrical design does not include lighting design. :)


Lady :)
 
Re: I'm mad!!!!!

It's interesting how this rule of thumb can decide how to divide a pie before the numbers are in. When such numbers are cast in stone it detracts from the final product. The pie can be used as a point of reference after the numbers come it, but to do it upfront is counterproductive. Dividing the pie theoretically upfront can be a helpful tool to make sure you are not way out of line, but to put the pie before the numbers can be like putting a size ten foot in a size nine shoe. The pie need only be used as a cross check. If you need more engineering hours on a specific project, well then you need them. There's no way around it unless you can improve your efficiency. Once you have your craft down to a science, then the pie needs to be resliced to meet your real world needs.

When the job is done it's easy to slice the pie. Pie charts are a reality.

01_energy.jpg


{ Edited for spelling. Thank Goodness for http://www.iespell.com }

[ May 12, 2004, 01:26 PM: Message edited by: awwt ]
 
Re: I'm mad!!!!!

I have to agree with hbendillo. 4% of electrical construction cost is the lowest we can go on a typical project, this includes all engineering tasks, lighting, power, signal and communication.

But 10-12% of construction cost is way too high, and I don't think that this is the norm.
 
Re: I'm mad!!!!!

Originally posted by hassaf:
I have to agree with hbendillo. 4% of electrical construction cost is the lowest we can go on a typical project, this includes all engineering tasks, lighting, power, signal and communication.

But 10-12% of construction cost is way too high, and I don't think that this is the norm.
Click to expand...
Electrical work is more detailed, then picking windows or trying to put colors or carpeting on the floors. Also, just because it doesn't cost as much doesn't mean the work isn't going to take the same amount of time. However, our cost are typically about 15% of design FEE, not total construction. You're right 10-12% of the construction is way too high. If the firm is given 7% of the whole construction cost, then I see why we can't get about 15% of that design FEE. This is high tech school work, not residential type installations.

To me basing electrical design work solely on the overall construction cost per square foot, and deriving a percentage is just asinine, because they the budget will never be balanced correctly. We have architects getting %70 of the budget, while the MEP has to scrap and fight over the remaining 30%. :)

[ May 17, 2004, 12:36 PM: Message edited by: lady sparks lover ]
 
Re: I'm mad!!!!!

We don't do any residential work, it's strictly commercial and industrial. But, you're right about not basing the engineering fee only on construction cost. If the job needs more engineering, then it's more. For example, when doing power, if the job has more than one voltage, 480 and 208, or if there is an emergency system, then suddenly it's more things that you deal with. When we say 5%-6%, we only talking about a normal project (like educational building modernization, commercial type buildings, maybe T.I's, and so forth), and not necessarily what you're talking about.

It would seem that we might agree that every job might be different, and the fee could go to up to 12%, but i think this is occasionally, and not normally.
 
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