In California, can a HVAC technician replace the unit's electrical disconnect?

[grasfulls]

We (electricians) have always installed the disconnect, and pretty much every HVAC tech I know has replaced one or more. It does not bother me one way or the other, but it is a curiosity at this stage.

 

[tortuga]

Good question, can a C20 or a general B pull a an electrical permit in your town, or does it have to be a C10?
In CA if the HVAC company is licensed as a General 'B', my understanding is they can do an unlimited amount of electrical + HVAC projects without any other license becasue those are two 'unrelated building trades or crafts'.

I don't think employees of a C20 or a General B presently need to hold a CA Journeyman electrician license to make electrical installations.

A C20 "HVAC" license is probably what most CA HVAC people have, and I don't know of any law requiring such a company to have an additional license to do electrical work related to HVAC.

That being said I suspect for CYA liability a C20 would want a C10 to take responsibility for all wiring, or at minimum the branch circuit up to the disconnect, incuding the sizing of the OCPD and all the conductors up to the terminations in the equipment.

 

[mtnelect]

C-20 - Warm-Air Heating, Ventilating and Air-Conditioning Contractor​

California Code of Regulations
Title 16, Division 8, Article 3. Classifications

A warm-air heating, ventilating and air-conditioning contractor fabricates, installs, maintains, services and repairs warm-air heating systems and water heating heat pumps, complete with warm-air appliances; ventilating systems complete with blowers and plenum chambers; air-conditioning systems complete with air-conditioning unit; and the ducts, registers, flues, humidity and thermostatic controls and air filters in connection with any of these systems. This classification shall include warm-air heating, ventilating and air-conditioning systems which utilize solar energy.

Authority cited: Sections 7008 and 7059, Reference: Sections 7058 and 7059 (Business and Professions Code)

 

[mtnelect]

C-10 - Electrical Contractor​

California Code of Regulations
Title 16, Division 8, Article 3. Classifications

An electrical contractor places, installs, erects or connects any electrical wires, fixtures, appliances, apparatus, raceways, conduits, solar photovoltaic cells or any part thereof, which generate, transmit, transform or utilize electrical energy in any form or for any purpose.

Authority cited: Sections 7008 and 7059, Reference: Sections 7058 and 7059 (Business and Professions Code)

 

[mtnelect]

Good question, can a C20 or a general B pull a an electrical permit in your town, or does it have to be a C10?
In CA if the HVAC company is licensed as a General 'B', my understanding is they can do an unlimited amount of electrical + HVAC projects without any other license becasue those are two 'unrelated building trades or crafts'.

I don't think employees of a C20 or a General B presently need to hold a CA Journeyman electrician license to make electrical installations.

A C20 "HVAC" license is probably what most CA HVAC people have, and I don't know of any law requiring such a company to have an additional license to do electrical work related to HVAC.

That being said I suspect for CYA liability a C20 would want a C10 to take responsibility for all wiring, or at minimum the branch circuit up to the disconnect, incuding the sizing of the OCPD and all the conductors up to the terminations in the equipment.

That's why I have a C10 & C20.

 

[letgomywago]

That's why I have a C10 & C20.

Is that common with the current method of ET program for CA now or was it just those pre 2010s that are dual licensed?

 

[mtnelect]

B - General Building Contractor​

Business & Professions Code
Division 3, Chapter 9. Contractors, Article 4. Classifications

7057. (a) Except as provided in this section, a general building contractor is a contractor whose principal contracting business is in connection with any structure built, being built, or to be built, for the support, shelter, and enclosure of persons, animals, chattels, or movable property of any kind, requiring in its construction the use of at least two unrelated building trades or crafts, or to do or superintend the whole or any part thereof.

This does not include anyone who merely furnishes materials or supplies under Section 7045 without fabricating them into, or consuming them in the performance of the work of the general building contractor.

(b) A general building contractor may take a prime contract or a subcontract for a framing or carpentry project. However, a general building contractor shall not take a prime contract for any project involving trades other than framing or carpentry unless the prime contract requires at least two unrelated building trades or crafts other than framing or carpentry, or unless the general building contractor holds the appropriate license classification or subcontracts with an appropriately licensed specialty contractor to perform the work. A general building contractor shall not take a subcontract involving trades other than framing or carpentry, unless the subcontract requires at least two unrelated trades or crafts other than framing or carpentry, or unless the general building contractor holds the appropriate license classification. The general building contractor may not count framing or carpentry in calculating the two unrelated trades necessary in order for the general building contractor to be able to take a prime contract or subcontract for a project involving other trades.

(c) No general building contractor shall contract for any project that includes the "C-16" Fire Protection classification as provided for in Section 7026.12 or the "C-57" Well Drilling classification as provided for in Section 13750.5 of the Water Code, unless the general building contractor holds the specialty license, or subcontracts with the appropriately licensed specialty contractor.

(Amended by Stats. 1997, Chapter 812 (SB 857).)

Fast Facts: What Jobs a "B" General Contractor Can/Cannot Perform

Is that common with the current method of ET program for CA now or was it just those pre 2010s that are dual licensed?

This might help to explain.

Is that common with the current method of ET program for CA now or was it just those pre 2010s that are dual licensed?

In California you can add additional licenses to your main license, but you must show your experience and take a test to qualify.

 

[letgomywago]

B - General Building Contractor​

Business & Professions Code
Division 3, Chapter 9. Contractors, Article 4. Classifications

7057. (a) Except as provided in this section, a general building contractor is a contractor whose principal contracting business is in connection with any structure built, being built, or to be built, for the support, shelter, and enclosure of persons, animals, chattels, or movable property of any kind, requiring in its construction the use of at least two unrelated building trades or crafts, or to do or superintend the whole or any part thereof.

This does not include anyone who merely furnishes materials or supplies under Section 7045 without fabricating them into, or consuming them in the performance of the work of the general building contractor.

(b) A general building contractor may take a prime contract or a subcontract for a framing or carpentry project. However, a general building contractor shall not take a prime contract for any project involving trades other than framing or carpentry unless the prime contract requires at least two unrelated building trades or crafts other than framing or carpentry, or unless the general building contractor holds the appropriate license classification or subcontracts with an appropriately licensed specialty contractor to perform the work. A general building contractor shall not take a subcontract involving trades other than framing or carpentry, unless the subcontract requires at least two unrelated trades or crafts other than framing or carpentry, or unless the general building contractor holds the appropriate license classification. The general building contractor may not count framing or carpentry in calculating the two unrelated trades necessary in order for the general building contractor to be able to take a prime contract or subcontract for a project involving other trades.

(c) No general building contractor shall contract for any project that includes the "C-16" Fire Protection classification as provided for in Section 7026.12 or the "C-57" Well Drilling classification as provided for in Section 13750.5 of the Water Code, unless the general building contractor holds the specialty license, or subcontracts with the appropriately licensed specialty contractor.

(Amended by Stats. 1997, Chapter 812 (SB 857).)

Fast Facts: What Jobs a "B" General Contractor Can/Cannot Perform


This might help to explain.


In California you can add additional licenses to your main license, but you must show your experience and take a test to qualify.

Yes so unless you're an ET while working under a c10 you can't claim that experience.

 

[tortuga]

Yes so unless you're an ET while working under a c10 you can't claim that experience.

What do you mean by ET?

 

[tortuga]

B - General Building Contractor​

Business & Professions Code
Division 3, Chapter 9. Contractors, Article 4. Classifications

7057.
(b) A general building contractor may take a prime contract or a subcontract for a framing or carpentry project. However, a general building contractor shall not take a prime contract for any project involving trades other than framing or carpentry unless the prime contract requires at least two unrelated building trades or crafts other than framing or carpentry

That is the general B loop hole

 

[letgomywago]

What do you mean by ET?

California's Electrical Trainee program. Guys working for C10s have been burned for their hours for not applying for an ET card before working. The clock doesnt start ticking till you have the card. Working 10000 hours for a C10 without one doesn't matter anymore. C10S aren't supposed to hire individuals without this either but have been but only the new guy are being burned by this though unfortunately.

 

[norcal]

It seems to me that unless you are working for a C10 contractor, you do not have be certified to do electrical work.

 

[tortuga]

California's Electrical Trainee program. Guys working for C10s have been burned for their hours for not applying for an ET card before working. The clock doesnt start ticking till you have the card. Working 10000 hours for a C10 without one doesn't matter anymore. C10S aren't supposed to hire individuals without this either but have been but only the new guy are being burned by this though unfortunately.

Wow that could be a major bummer, so even someone training under a master low voltage C7 or C20 doing legit permitted electrical gets no credit. Then on the other hand there are electrical/mechanical shops that just are a general B so they don't need worry about / pay for licensed workers.

 

[curt swartz]

I know an electrician that had 15+ years of experience but never got certified. He applied for his C-10 last year and the CSLB never questioned that his experience was done without certification.

The CSLB is now charging C-10's an additional certification verification fee when we renew our licenses. I don't know if that means there are now enforcing it?

One of the big issues when the certification program started was who was going to enforce it. CSLB, W.C. insurance, liability insurance, inspectors?
No one wanted to bear the cost of enforcement of a program that was intended to limit only members of a certain group to do electrical work.

 

[mtnelect]

Electrician Certification Program​

Existing law requires that persons performing work as electrician under a C-10 licensed contractor be certified pursuant to certification standards established by the Division of Labor Standards Enforcement. “Electricians” is defined as all persons who engage in the connection of electrical devices for electrical contractors licensed pursuant to Section 7058 of the Business and Profession Code, specifically, contractors classified as electrical contractors in the Contractors State License Board Rules and Regulations [Labor Code § 108 (c)].

​

 

[letgomywago]

Electrician Certification Program​

Existing law requires that persons performing work as electrician under a C-10 licensed contractor be certified pursuant to certification standards established by the Division of Labor Standards Enforcement. “Electricians” is defined as all persons who engage in the connection of electrical devices for electrical contractors licensed pursuant to Section 7058 of the Business and Profession Code, specifically, contractors classified as electrical contractors in the Contractors State License Board Rules and Regulations [Labor Code § 108 (c)].

​

Legislation passed in 1999 requiring all electricians who work for a C-10 electrical contractor to be certified by the state of California. Regulations from that legislation were put in place in 2002, setting deadlines for all categories of electricians. Many of those deadlines have already passed. To continue to work as an electrician after the deadline has passed, a person must be one of the following: certified by having taken and passed the exam or an apprentice in a state approved program or an electrician trainee. If a person wants to perform electrical work for a C-10 contractor and does not yet qualify to take the certification exam because of lack of work experience or related instruction, can do so legally by registering as an electrician trainee.

An electrician trainee must be enrolled in a state approved school and under the supervision of a certified electrician that supervises only one electrician trainee.

Straight from Dept of Industrial Relations website

 

[mtnelect]

The IBEW sponsored this legislation to eliminate the "Trunk Slammers".

 

[letgomywago]

The IBEW sponsored this legislation to eliminate the "Trunk Slammers".

It has almost no Enforcement other than guys trying to get their license and the oddball perfect case

 

[curt swartz]

The IBEW sponsored this legislation to eliminate the "Trunk Slammers".

Negative!
If this certification was truly about unqualified "electricians" it would apply to all employees doing electrical work under any classification of license.

Most of the unsafe electrical work I have run across during my 42+ years in the trade has been from DIY's, handymen, general contractors, HVAC contractors and swimming pool contractors not electrical contractors. Yes, some some employees of electrical contractors do bad work but the owners and supervisor should catch it. When someone is doing electrical work for a business that has zero electrical experience they wouldn't know if their employees are not doing thing correctly.

 

[tortuga]

Negative!
If this certification was truly about unqualified "electricians" it would apply to all employees doing electrical work under any classification of license.

Most of the unsafe electrical work I have run across during my 42+ years in the trade has been from DIY's, handymen, general contractors, HVAC contractors and swimming pool contractors not electrical contractors. Yes, some some employees of electrical contractors do bad work but the owners and supervisor should catch it. When someone is doing electrical work for a business that has zero electrical experience they wouldn't know if their employees are not doing thing correctly.

Yeah the CLSB law Michael posted has a section :

7057(C) No general building contractor shall contract for any project that includes the "C-16" Fire Protection classification as provided for in Section 7026.12 or the "C-57" Well Drilling classification as provided for in Section 13750.5 of the Water Code, unless the general building contractor holds the specialty license, or subcontracts with the appropriately licensed specialty contractor.

All they would need to do to eliminate the "trunk slammers" is add C10, C7 and whatever C solar/energy storage is these days to that list in 7057(C) .
I am sure there are builder's (general B) with in house electrical crews that would lobby hard against such a change, but until that law applies to everyone it undercuts the C10's.