In California, can a HVAC technician replace the unit's electrical disconnect?

[letgomywago]

Yeah the CLSB law Michael posted has a section :

All they would need to do to eliminate the "trunk slammers" is add C10, C7 and whatever C solar/energy storage is these days to that list in 7057(C) .
I am sure there are builder's (general B) with in house electrical crews that would lobby hard against such a change, but until that law applies to everyone it undercuts the C10's.

They'd need a 02 equivalent and I think they should make a restricted c10 for those individuals.

 

[GraceShah]

Most HVAC contractors hold a C20 license, which covers a lot of the related work, but not all of it. Technically, to stay on the safe side with liability, it’s usually better for a licensed electrician (C10) to handle anything beyond the HVAC unit itself, especially when it comes to electrical wiring and components like disconnects.

 

[GraceShah]

Most HVAC contractors hold a C20 license, which covers a lot of the related work, but not all of it. Technically, to stay on the safe side with liability, it’s usually better for a licensed electrician (C10) to handle anything beyond the HVAC unit itself, especially when it comes to electrical wiring and components like disconnects.

That said, HVAC techs tend to handle it anyway since it's such a common part of the job, and in most cases, it falls within their scope. If you’re looking to dig deeper into certifications, NATE has three certifications that can help HVAC pros get a better grasp of both HVAC systems and the electrical side of things.

 

[mtnelect]

As doing inspections for the CSLB (Contractors State License Board) the local AHJ (Authority Having Jurisdiction) don't enforce California Title 24, for whatever reason(s). There is a disconnect between the state and local jurisdictions.

 

[tortuga]

That said, HVAC techs tend to handle it anyway since it's such a common part of the job, and in most cases, it falls within their scope. If you’re looking to dig deeper into certifications, NATE has three certifications that can help HVAC pros get a better grasp of both HVAC systems and the electrical side of things.

Unless the NATE certification program is registered with the state of California as state approved electrician training program it would only be useful to a HVAC contractor (C20) whom was not also a electrical contractor (C10).
If a HVAC contractor is both a C20 and a C10 ( or just a C10 ) then the only employees that can do any electrical installations are certified electricians or their trainees / apprentices.
If the HVAC contractor is just a C20 then my understanding is they can do an unlimited amount of electrical work with non-certified employees as long as its related to an HVAC install or upgrade. So if they say for example have to upgrade a service from 100 to 200A for a HVAC system I am not aware of anything requiring them to have certified electrician employees or a C10 license.
So if that's accurate I'd imagine there is a incentive to just be a C20 and that's all, as then your techs could do stuff like wire into the disconnect, run wire to head units etc without the need to be certified.

 

[mtnelect]

This might help to explain.
My understanding is that any new electrical wiring for a new HVAC system requires a "C10".
My understanding is that any new HVAC systems installation or service and repair, require a "C20".

 

[jaggedben]

Wow that could be a major bummer, so even someone training under a master low voltage C7 or C20 doing legit permitted electrical gets no credit. ...

Or a C46.

 

[jaggedben]

In my opinion a C20 may run the electrical circuit and deal with the disconnect for an HVAC system, just as a solar contractor can run the circuit for a PV system. That said I've seen a lot of hack work when the HVAC guys do it, much more likely to be egregious than typical solar work in my experience.
YMMV

 

[tortuga]

This might help to explain.
My understanding is that any new electrical wiring for a new HVAC system requires a "C10".
My understanding is that any new HVAC systems installation or service and repair, require a "C20".

So according to that
A General B can do both the a 200A service upgrade panel and the entire HVAC install since they are two 'unrelated trades', with no certified electrician, no C10 no C20 needed.
A C-10 contractor may not contract for a water heating or HVAC system of any kind.
A C20 can do any electrical work related to HVAC and there are not requirements for certified electricians or any clear law spelling out what is related, so the panel change is on the table if its related.

 

[mtnelect]

So according to that
A General B can do both the a 200A service upgrade panel and the entire HVAC install since they are two 'unrelated trades', with no certified electrician, no C10 no C20 needed.
A C-10 contractor may not contract for a water heating or HVAC system of any kind.
A C20 can do any electrical work related to HVAC and there are not requirements for certified electricians or any clear law spelling out what is related, so the panel change is on the table if its related.

Yes ... A C10 is needed if a new service upgrade is required for a HVAC (Heating Ventilation Air Conditioning) or Photovoltaic system.

 

[mtnelect]

Also ... The requirement for a State Certified Electrician, only applies to a C10.

 

[tortuga]

Yes ... A C10 is needed if a new service upgrade is required for a HVAC.

I am not seeing where it says that in the law, perhaps you can provide a link to the Business and Professions Code (BPC) section?
I see the exact opposite in California Code, BPC § 7059:

Nothing contained in this section shall prohibit a specialty contractor from taking and executing a contract involving the use of two or more crafts or trades, if the performance of the work in the crafts or trades, other than in which he or she is licensed, is incidental and supplemental to the performance of the work in the craft for which the specialty contractor is licensed.

 

[tortuga]

Michael I wish you were correct, but its just not what the law says, if you look in the BPC 7058 thats where they spell out other types of work contractors cannot do such as 'asbestos-related work' in 7058.5:

7058.5. (a) A contractor shall not engage in asbestos-related work, as defined in Section 6501.8 of the Labor Code, that involves 100 square feet or more of surface area of asbestos containing materials, unless the contractor holds a C-22 Asbestos Abatement classification or the qualifier for the license passes an asbestos certification examination.

There is no similar section in 7058 for the electrical trade that I am aware of.
There are limits on what electrical work a residential remodeling contractor can do in 7057.5 (J), but no limit [that I can find] on what a C20 (or a C46) can do as long as replacing a electrical service or panel is incidental and related to your specialty.
Since a C10's specialty is just electrical replacing a HVAC system is unlikely to be incidental or related to a service upgrade, but if a say waterheater or HVAC system was causing a 110.26 violation its arguable the electrician could do the HVAC or plumbing work necessary to relocate the equipment with no additional license, as that work would be incidental and supplemental to the performance of the work in the craft for which the specialty contractor is licensed under BPC 7059.

 

[mtnelect]

My understanding of that section relates to allowing a specialty contractor to subcontract the work.

 

[jaggedben]

Yes ... A C10 is needed if a new service upgrade is required for a HVAC (Heating Ventilation Air Conditioning) or Photovoltaic system.

Or a B.

 

[jaggedben]

Michael I wish you were correct, but its just not what the law says, if you look in the BPC 7058 thats where they spell out other types of work contractors cannot do such as 'asbestos-related work' in 7058.5:

There is no similar section in 7058 for the electrical trade that I am aware of.
There are limits on what electrical work a residential remodeling contractor can do in 7057.5 (J), but no limit [that I can find] on what a C20 (or a C46) can do as long as replacing a electrical service or panel is incidental and related to your specialty.
Since a C10's specialty is just electrical replacing a HVAC system is unlikely to be incidental or related to a service upgrade, but if a say waterheater or HVAC system was causing a 110.26 violation its arguable the electrician could do the HVAC or plumbing work necessary to relocate the equipment with no additional license, as that work would be incidental and supplemental to the performance of the work in the craft for which the specialty contractor is licensed under BPC 7059.

For a C-46 or even a C-20 it might hinge on whether the service upgrade is necessary to perform the other work. But jurisdictions who care, and the CSLB, are not likely to look kindly on that argument.

 

[ramsy]

no limit [that I can find] on what.. is incidental and related to your specialty

Yes, CA B&P 7059 "incidental and supplemental" may allow any license or their employees do all trades in their path.

"Universal Citation: 16 CA Code of Regs 831
Current through Register 2024 Notice Reg. No. 38, September 20, 2024
For purposes of Section 7059, work in other classifications is "incidental and supplemental" to the work for which a specialty contractor is licensed if that work is essential to accomplish the work in which the contractor is classified. A specialty contractor may use subcontractors to complete the incidental and supplemental work, or he may use his own employees to do so."

Qualified persons can't be enforced, until the insurance, lender, or AHJ wants an electrical permit, or inspection.

https://www.ecmag.com/magazine/articles/article-detail/codes-standards-who-qualified-person-definitions-and-designations

 

[Eddie702]

I did electrical work (yes I am licensed) and HVAC work in my 46 years in the trades. I worked in MA & CT. It is common practice (but probably not legal) for an HVAC tech to change a disconnect IMHO

In MA it is required (now for several years) for HVAC techs to have some minimal electrical code training in order to get their refrigeration license.

I used to teach them at the pipefitters/plumber's union hall. The hours spent with them was limited.

I used to try and keep them out of trouble by stressing equipment grounding, conductor size and fuse/breaker size.

To me if those three things are correct at least a catastrophe could be avoided.

Although I feel an electrician should do the disconnect swap the reality is that many HVAC contractors will change disconnects.

So do you try to keep them out of trouble or insist they hire an electrician which many will not do for a simple job?

 

[Seven-Delta-FortyOne]

Honestly, most of this is a non-issue, real world. Very few, in any, HVAC guys would *want* to do a panel changeout.

It’s important to remember, the purpose of the CSLB is not the protection of the trades, but the protection of the consumer. It was formed in 1929 when California was overrun with scammers and snake oil salesmen and every kind of assorted loser who drained this way, trying to make a buck for nothing.

If an HVAC company applied for a permit for a panel change, it would get kicked back at plan check for wrong license class.

This state needs less regulation, not more. GCs are allowed to self-perform most trades, because that’s common sense. Some folks from other states can’t wrap their head around how a “GC” can pipe a house and not kill everyone in a 50 mile radius from e.coli, but it’s no different than people realizing that states with zero licensing, for any trade, don’t have a single higher incident of buildings falling over because the GC wasn’t licensed.

Half the states in this country don’t have licensing at all. It isn’t a license that protects the trade. Quality work stands out for those who want it, and those who wish to live in squalor and cut corners will do it, regulations be damned.

 

[ramsy]

the purpose of the CSLB is not the protection of the trades, but the protection of the consumer.

Several Most Wanted are real pieces of work.

Some sting projects also prosecute licenses, violating workman’s comp, and down payment limits.

In other states that require qualified persons, the Masters tend to become the rats the reform the commerce, and each other.