Can a receptacle meet the definition of individual branch circuit? There is an electrician I know who says yes ,I say no. Art 100 seems to say an individual branch circuit serves utilization equipment and yes that equipment may have an attachment plug but a receptacle utilizes no electricity it is the equipment we serve, so we must size an individual branch for a specific load and not a receptacle. If anyone has any input I'd be happy to hear it
Individual branch Circuit?????
- Thread starter cram
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jtester
Senior Member
- Location
- Las Cruces N.M.
Re: Individual branch Circuit?????
marc
The definition of a branch circuit is The circuit conductors between the final overcurrent device protecting the circuit and the outlet(s)
So the answer to your question is no, a receptacle can't be a branch circuit.
However an individual receptacle can be served by a branch circuit.
Jim T
marc
The definition of a branch circuit is The circuit conductors between the final overcurrent device protecting the circuit and the outlet(s)
So the answer to your question is no, a receptacle can't be a branch circuit.
However an individual receptacle can be served by a branch circuit.
Jim T
al hildenbrand
Senior Member
- Location
- Minnesota
- Occupation
- Electrical Contractor, Electrical Consultant, Electrical Engineer
Re: Individual branch Circuit?????
Marc,
I'm not sure I understand your question. Are you asking whether a branch circuit with a single receptacle outlet can be an individual branch circuit?
Are you saying that a single utilization equipment must be connected without using a receptacle in order for the branch circuit, connected to no other outlets, to be an individual branch circuit?
Marc,
I'm not sure I understand your question. Are you asking whether a branch circuit with a single receptacle outlet can be an individual branch circuit?
Are you saying that a single utilization equipment must be connected without using a receptacle in order for the branch circuit, connected to no other outlets, to be an individual branch circuit?
Re: Individual branch Circuit?????
No, what I am saying is that the rating of an individual branch circuit is to be based on the load to be served,There was a thread recently where some were thinking that it would be code compliant to put a 50 amp receptacle on a 15 amp individual branch circuit.This has been bugging me,so I asked a family member who is also an electrician, he thought not good practice but not prohibited. I am having a hard time with this, because if the receptacle were to be used in compliance with it's rating it would cause an overload. But by definition an individual branch can only serve utilization equipment. IF the rating of the receptacle (50amps)is the maximum allowed load to be attached to the outlet and the equipment is not allowed to be served by a branch circuit incapable serving the load applied, then is this not a violation of 210.23 permissible loads? It says "in no case shall the load exceed the branch circuit ampere rating. An individual branch circuit shall be permitted to supply any load for which it is rated" A 15 amp circuit is not rated for a 50 amp load.Since a receptacle is not a load and only serves as a point of attachment of a load impressed upon the circuit I feel 210.23 has been misunderstood and that it is a violation to serve a 50amp receptacle outlet with a 15 amp circuit.I'm sorry if you guys are sick of this. I have not used this forum much, and do not know proper ediquette.
No, what I am saying is that the rating of an individual branch circuit is to be based on the load to be served,There was a thread recently where some were thinking that it would be code compliant to put a 50 amp receptacle on a 15 amp individual branch circuit.This has been bugging me,so I asked a family member who is also an electrician, he thought not good practice but not prohibited. I am having a hard time with this, because if the receptacle were to be used in compliance with it's rating it would cause an overload. But by definition an individual branch can only serve utilization equipment. IF the rating of the receptacle (50amps)is the maximum allowed load to be attached to the outlet and the equipment is not allowed to be served by a branch circuit incapable serving the load applied, then is this not a violation of 210.23 permissible loads? It says "in no case shall the load exceed the branch circuit ampere rating. An individual branch circuit shall be permitted to supply any load for which it is rated" A 15 amp circuit is not rated for a 50 amp load.Since a receptacle is not a load and only serves as a point of attachment of a load impressed upon the circuit I feel 210.23 has been misunderstood and that it is a violation to serve a 50amp receptacle outlet with a 15 amp circuit.I'm sorry if you guys are sick of this. I have not used this forum much, and do not know proper ediquette.
Re: Individual branch Circuit?????
Cram, listen to your family member and the forum members who told you the same thing (exclude me if it makes you feel better).
Take a 20 amp individual branch circuit feeding any Utilization equipment, now let's say this equipment needs a disconnect, you have a 200 amp safety switch lying around so you use it, do you see a problem? This is the same thing.
It's hard to accept a change to something you think or have thought was correct (or incorrect) and find out you were wrong.
Roger
[ January 31, 2005, 06:39 PM: Message edited by: roger ]
Cram, listen to your family member and the forum members who told you the same thing (exclude me if it makes you feel better).
Take a 20 amp individual branch circuit feeding any Utilization equipment, now let's say this equipment needs a disconnect, you have a 200 amp safety switch lying around so you use it, do you see a problem? This is the same thing.
It's hard to accept a change to something you think or have thought was correct (or incorrect) and find out you were wrong.
Roger
[ January 31, 2005, 06:39 PM: Message edited by: roger ]
izak
Senior Member
- Location
- Springfield, MO
Re: Individual branch Circuit?????
AS it has already been pointed out to me (much to my disapointment, T.210.21 (B) (3) has to do with 'two or more receps on a circuit.
Not One
(dammit...)
AS it has already been pointed out to me (much to my disapointment, T.210.21 (B) (3) has to do with 'two or more receps on a circuit.
Not One
(dammit...)
Re: Individual branch Circuit?????
your talking about a safety switch. switches don't draw current. I have to agree if a 50 amp recep is installed on a 20 amp circuit happy harry homeowner is goin to in the case of residential hook a range to it and this would but you in violation of 210.23 but on the same note if on a 20 amp circuit someone puts in a 50 amp recep and for some on known reason takes equipment rated to be used on a 20 amp circuit and puts a 50 amp cord on it and plugs it in alls good. but again who is to say that somewhere down the road that someone isn't going to unplug this cluster and plug in a range.
anyone else think this is just plane wrong
[ January 31, 2005, 08:53 PM: Message edited by: kendog ]
your talking about a safety switch. switches don't draw current. I have to agree if a 50 amp recep is installed on a 20 amp circuit happy harry homeowner is goin to in the case of residential hook a range to it and this would but you in violation of 210.23 but on the same note if on a 20 amp circuit someone puts in a 50 amp recep and for some on known reason takes equipment rated to be used on a 20 amp circuit and puts a 50 amp cord on it and plugs it in alls good. but again who is to say that somewhere down the road that someone isn't going to unplug this cluster and plug in a range.
anyone else think this is just plane wrong
[ January 31, 2005, 08:53 PM: Message edited by: kendog ]
Re: Individual branch Circuit?????
Ken, explain the danger, on second thought don't, just read this thread from front to back.
Hopefully this thread will be closed soon.
Roger
[ January 31, 2005, 09:08 PM: Message edited by: roger ]
Ken, explain the danger, on second thought don't, just read this thread from front to back.
Hopefully this thread will be closed soon.
Roger
[ January 31, 2005, 09:08 PM: Message edited by: roger ]
jwelectric
Senior Member
- Location
- North Carolina
Re: Individual branch Circuit?????
What I ?think? should be looked at here is a little more than we as a whole are looking at.
To use a cord and plug as a disconnecting means is by all means code compliant and its use is widely used.
The use of a 50 amp receptacle on a 20 amp circuit would mean that the male plug attached to the piece of equipment rated at 20 amps could now be plugged into a 50 amp circuit. Whether code compliant or not it sure would be a danger to persons and property and a violation of 90.1 not to mention the possible violation of listing and labeling for the receptacle as outlined in 110.3 (B)
What I ?think? should be looked at here is a little more than we as a whole are looking at.
To use a cord and plug as a disconnecting means is by all means code compliant and its use is widely used.
The use of a 50 amp receptacle on a 20 amp circuit would mean that the male plug attached to the piece of equipment rated at 20 amps could now be plugged into a 50 amp circuit. Whether code compliant or not it sure would be a danger to persons and property and a violation of 90.1 not to mention the possible violation of listing and labeling for the receptacle as outlined in 110.3 (B)
Re: Individual branch Circuit?????
Roger, an idividual branch circuit by definition is "A branch circuit that supplies only one utilization equipment". Receptacle"A receptacle is a contact device installed at the outlet for the connection of an attachment plug."Attachment plug "A device that,establishes a connection between the conductors of the attached flexible cord and the conductors connected permanently to the receptacle" Attachment plug contact blades have specific shapes and sizes and configurations so that a receptacle or cord connector will not accept an attachment plug of a different voltage or current rating than that for which the device is intended. If the rating of the branch is 15 amps,and the receptacle is 50amps does that not differ from what the device was intended for? A receptacle is not utilization equipment it receives attachment of equipment and a 50 amp configuration is intended to supply equipment with a like rating. would anyone "hard wire" equipment rated at 50 amps on a 15 amp circuit? So, because we are allowed an attachment to a receptacle via a flexible cord and plug it is now O.K. ? I don't think this code book allows it. It has nothing to do with you, but lets stay on topic, that of individual branch circuits, we can talk about switches ,another time they are not the same.
Roger, an idividual branch circuit by definition is "A branch circuit that supplies only one utilization equipment". Receptacle"A receptacle is a contact device installed at the outlet for the connection of an attachment plug."Attachment plug "A device that,establishes a connection between the conductors of the attached flexible cord and the conductors connected permanently to the receptacle" Attachment plug contact blades have specific shapes and sizes and configurations so that a receptacle or cord connector will not accept an attachment plug of a different voltage or current rating than that for which the device is intended. If the rating of the branch is 15 amps,and the receptacle is 50amps does that not differ from what the device was intended for? A receptacle is not utilization equipment it receives attachment of equipment and a 50 amp configuration is intended to supply equipment with a like rating. would anyone "hard wire" equipment rated at 50 amps on a 15 amp circuit? So, because we are allowed an attachment to a receptacle via a flexible cord and plug it is now O.K. ? I don't think this code book allows it. It has nothing to do with you, but lets stay on topic, that of individual branch circuits, we can talk about switches ,another time they are not the same.
- Location
- Illinois
- Occupation
- retired electrician
Re: Individual branch Circuit?????
Don
The section clearly applies to a single receptacle on an individual branch circuit and also clearly permits the receptacle to have any rating equal to or greater than the branch circuit rating.
Don
Re: Individual branch Circuit?????
Don, you can not disregard the rest of the book and it does not say that it can be greater than the branch circuit rating it says it shall not be less.You are reading something that is not written.The handbook has under 210.23 this to say, take it for what it is worth:"The requirements of 210.23 are often misunderstood.An individual branch circuit can supply any load within its rating.On the other side,the load, of course cannot be greator than the branch circuit rating".Please keep in mind an I.B.C. cannot supply a receptacle, it supplys equipment that uses electricity.There is such a thing as a 50 amp attachment plug how can we supply the equipment that has a 50 amp need, with a 15 amp circuit.the branch circuit is suppling the equipment with a 50 amp plug and it needs to be rated for it.
Don, you can not disregard the rest of the book and it does not say that it can be greater than the branch circuit rating it says it shall not be less.You are reading something that is not written.The handbook has under 210.23 this to say, take it for what it is worth:"The requirements of 210.23 are often misunderstood.An individual branch circuit can supply any load within its rating.On the other side,the load, of course cannot be greator than the branch circuit rating".Please keep in mind an I.B.C. cannot supply a receptacle, it supplys equipment that uses electricity.There is such a thing as a 50 amp attachment plug how can we supply the equipment that has a 50 amp need, with a 15 amp circuit.the branch circuit is suppling the equipment with a 50 amp plug and it needs to be rated for it.
- Location
- Windsor, CO NEC: 2017
- Occupation
- Hospital Master Electrician
Re: Individual branch Circuit?????
Plug in your 45 amp load to the 15 amp IBC with a 50 amp receptacle. When the breaker kicks you'll find a "15" stamped on the handle.
Make a proposal, if you're tore on this. But it's kind of a non-issue. EC's who are clever enough to apply code in this fashion will find a hole, people who ignore code will ignore the new code.
And you could be closing the door on an innovative solution to a problem he haven't been presented with yet.
Plug in your 45 amp load to the 15 amp IBC with a 50 amp receptacle. When the breaker kicks you'll find a "15" stamped on the handle.
Make a proposal, if you're tore on this. But it's kind of a non-issue. EC's who are clever enough to apply code in this fashion will find a hole, people who ignore code will ignore the new code.
And you could be closing the door on an innovative solution to a problem he haven't been presented with yet.
pierre
Senior Member
- Location
- Westchester County, New York
Re: Individual branch Circuit?????
Marc
Have you read the requirements for 210.52(B)(1)exception 2?
This permits a piece of utilization equipment (refrigerator) to be supplied from a receptacle, a single receptacle.
Don't get so crazy over this, and you can be glad that Benny is not around... he had a way of changing the everyday thought process
Pierre
Marc
Have you read the requirements for 210.52(B)(1)exception 2?
This permits a piece of utilization equipment (refrigerator) to be supplied from a receptacle, a single receptacle.
Don't get so crazy over this, and you can be glad that Benny is not around... he had a way of changing the everyday thought process
Pierre
- Location
- Illinois
- Occupation
- retired electrician
Re: Individual branch Circuit?????
Marc,
Don
Marc,
Where does the code say that? 210.21 says"(1) Single Receptacle on an Individual Branch Circuit". What part of the definition of individual branch circuit says that it must be hard wired?
I think you are the one reading things that are not there. By the way is "4" not less than "2"?
Don
Re: Individual branch Circuit?????
Lets say for whatever reason you have a piece of equipment and for the sake of argument the name plate is gone the directions are gone but the attachment plug is a 50amp configuration these guys are saying they can buy a 50 amp receptacle and feed this equipment with a #14 on a 15 amp branch circuit.I say no. Just like you cannot put a 15 amp receptacle for a frig that has a 20amp attachment plug, I'm not saying a receptacle cannot serve equipment,I'm saying the circuit must be rated for the equipment to be served.
Lets say for whatever reason you have a piece of equipment and for the sake of argument the name plate is gone the directions are gone but the attachment plug is a 50amp configuration these guys are saying they can buy a 50 amp receptacle and feed this equipment with a #14 on a 15 amp branch circuit.I say no. Just like you cannot put a 15 amp receptacle for a frig that has a 20amp attachment plug, I'm not saying a receptacle cannot serve equipment,I'm saying the circuit must be rated for the equipment to be served.
Re: Individual branch Circuit?????
Cram,
Roger
[ February 01, 2005, 09:15 AM: Message edited by: roger ]
Cram,
the problem here would not be current, but would be the voltage, and assuming the configuration of the cord cap was correct (NEMA 5-50 for 125V or 6-50 for 250V), you could use an ohm meter to get reasonably close to the circuit size needed.
Roger
[ February 01, 2005, 09:15 AM: Message edited by: roger ]
B
bthielen
Guest
Re: Individual branch Circuit?????
Cram,
Let me get this straight. You are suggesting that if I am installing 120v duplex receptacles and all I have in my supply are 20A rated receptacles, I would be in violation if I used these on a 15A rated branch circuit with its 15A OCPD and 14ga. wire?
Bob
Cram,
Let me get this straight. You are suggesting that if I am installing 120v duplex receptacles and all I have in my supply are 20A rated receptacles, I would be in violation if I used these on a 15A rated branch circuit with its 15A OCPD and 14ga. wire?
Bob
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