Individual meters for an old apartment building

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mdshunk said:
I can see a utility wanting to only serving loads over a certain ampacity with 3-phase maybe, but this load will not change much, if any.
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That is the case here. The poco will generally require 3-phase for multi-meter stacks like the ones in your picture, even if the all the loads are going to be all single phase residential. Load balancing is the reason, obviously.
 
The present single phase service presumably gives 120 volts for lighting and small appliances, and 240 volts for ranges, driers, A/C units and other large loads

If the service is changed to three phase then presumably the voltage will be 120/208.
Existing 240 volt appliances may have to be replaced with 208 volt ones, quite a few large appliances are listed for both 208 volt and 240 volt operation, but not all.
 
Go with your gut feeling, you may have caught 2 contractors that aren't suited for your needs. Keep trying contractors until you are comfortable. Remember "The Bitter taste of poor quality lingers long after the cheap price is forgotten".
I can't see why single phase would create any problem I've done new installs and renovations single phase if that's all thats available in the area. It was brought up earlier, hiring an engineer may be the route for this one. Maybe find another building in your area that has had similar work done and talk to the owner.
 
mdshunk said:
I promised some pictures of some 16 stacks. The CH equipment is about the most compact you're going to be able to get your hands on. Here's a few, most 16 stacks with an owner meter:

P1010223.jpg


P1010224.jpg


P1010226.jpg
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That ditch is to shallow
 
A picture is not always a good way to judge the depth or width of a situation.
If you were to look at where the grade level seems to be final, it is by the brick/concrete level. From the looks of it that is above the gentlman's knees. I would venture to say that is more than sufficient as per Table 300.5.

In our neck of the woods, I know that Marc is considerably south of us, there would be a requirement for expansion couplings as per 300.5(J).
 
peter d said:
That is the case here. The poco will generally require 3-phase for multi-meter stacks like the ones in your picture, even if the all the loads are going to be all single phase residential. Load balancing is the reason, obviously.
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I can't imagine this load is big enough to sweat that. The POCO would just balance the load down the line. They should be monitoring the load balance anyway.
 
mivey said:
I can't imagine this load is big enough to sweat that. The POCO would just balance the load down the line. They should be monitoring the load balance anyway.
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From the local power company rules

502. Load Balance
The customer?s wiring system shall be arranged in order to
give the best possible load balance on the service. Severely
unbalanced customer loads that affect the stability of the
distribution system will be disconnected until the customer
makes the necessary improvements to eliminate the
imbalance.
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A. 120/240 volts 3 wire single phase.
Most commonly used for residential customers and for
small commercial customers with up to 400 ampere
service entrance and with individual motors not over 5 HP.
Larger service entrances or larger motors may be accepted
with the specific approval of NSTAR.
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iwire said:
From the local power company rules
Quote:
502. Load Balance
...that affect the stability of the
distribution system...
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That's the key isn't it? I don't see this load as affecting the stability of the system. We serve entire neighborhoods off of single phase taps. It is just a matter of balancing your system load.

It would be silly to think that just because the customer changed to multi-metering we are going to require a 3-phase service.

Now if this were a new complex, and a 3-phase line were there, we might spec the service different. The builder is supposed to coordinate with the POCO, although they don't always do it. Sometimes it costs them money, sometimes we can work around the problem. The POCOs are not always so Draconian.
 
mivey said:
Now if this were a new complex, and a 3-phase line were there, we might spec the service different. The builder is supposed to coordinate with the POCO, although they don't always do it. Sometimes it costs them money, sometimes we can work around the problem. The POCOs are not always so Draconian.
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In the example of Marc's meter stacks, if they were to be installed under the POCO's here, they would tell us they are to be fed 3-phase. End of story.
 
iwire said:
You don't really live in the US do you? :D
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We are just a little more easy-going in the south. Generally, the smaller the town, the easier the POCO is to work with. In all probability, you are related somehow (not in the Joe Dirt sense).:grin:
 
if the OP told us who the poco is for his building, we could look at their requirements and see what he can and cant do.
 
LLSolutions said:
Go with your gut feeling, you may have caught 2 contractors that aren't suited for your needs. Keep trying contractors until you are comfortable. Remember "The Bitter taste of poor quality lingers long after the cheap price is forgotten".
I can't see why single phase would create any problem I've done new installs and renovations single phase if that's all thats available in the area. It was brought up earlier, hiring an engineer may be the route for this one. Maybe find another building in your area that has had similar work done and talk to the owner.
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This looks like it's out of my leage but I really like this and thinking about putting it on the back door to my van or atleast using it in advertising...Are you the famouse person that said it originally?? Maybe a pic of George Washington above it or something???:rolleyes:
 
We have rules for limits on 1? so we do not exceed the ability to serve since there is a limit on the size of 1? transformers. You can have additional services from separate transformers if more 1? power is needed.

I don't understand why the meeting with the electric utility took place without your involvement. It is time to talk directly with the utility engineer and you to set up the appointment. He will want an electrical contractor present so the discussion can take place on a technical level.

Sub-metering is a bad idea . . . period. In Indiana, you are permitted to sub-meter if you are using the readings to just split the bill. Add the headaches for collecting the bills and you will be losing money.

The load increase will indeed happen over time. I can't size the service for you but I would have a professional do it for you. This ain't a gonna be cheep . . . plan to spend a good amount of money but look for options.

Sorry I did not get into this conversation earlier but I was in Europe in June. :)
 
Submetering is not illegal in California. Profiting from submetering is, though.
You can usually contract out the billing as well.

They can be convenient, and cheap. Plus they're tiny compared to regular meters and you can mount them almost anywhere (they don't even have to be close to the circuit being monitored).
 
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