Inspection rant

[ivsenroute]

OK for anyone who does not know or cares I just happen to live on both sides of the fence. I still do electrical work but I am also a state registered electrical and building inspector.

Just sat down today to do a plan review on a new construction single family residence. In our state, the IRC 2006 is the standard.

Instead of unrolling a nice set up detailed plans, the builder basically gave us 2 drawings of a floor plan. No framing details, no window schedule, no plumbing, mechanical or energy details and of course, no electrical plans. All in all I had to write up 22 major deficiencies in his plans which will of course hold up the start date because who knows how long it will take him or the architect to give me a completed set of drawings.

OK, the rant here is because the subs, including the electrician is probably on a schedule and has expectations of starting this job in the next few weeks. Unfortunately the builder is completely unprepared and since I am on the other side of the fence I know that he will blame me for the hold up.

Why can't people simply be prepared for what they know they need?

On the electrical side, we need a drawing for the electrical because I will be stamping a set of prints as reviewed and accepted. Nothing was even mentioned about electrical in his submission package. We need to know:

Location of the service, OH, UG?
Location of main service panel.
Will there be any use of the footer for grounding before they pour it?
Lighting locations, receptacle locations.
Size of the service, dwelling load calculation, etc.

It is so much easier to catch problems before the job starts rather than have to make changes after the fact.

 

[tyha]

you know what it is because people like you that no one can make a living anymore. You hold up the process of some electrician trying to feed his family because of some stupid rules that you just mostly make up as you go. No seriously, that is basically just another builder trying to cut corners and ends up spending twice the time and money in the end. typical, I dont know why a good electrician would even want to work for them.

 

[LarryFine]

you know what it is because people like you that no one can make a living anymore. You hold up the process of some electrician trying to feed his family because of some stupid rules that you just mostly make up as you go. No seriously, that is basically just another builder trying to cut corners and ends up spending twice the time and money in the end. typical, I dont know why a good electrician would even want to work for them.

Are you serious??? :-?

 

[growler]

OK, the rant here is because the subs, including the electrician is probably on a schedule and has expectations of starting this job in the next few weeks. Unfortunately the builder is completely unprepared and since I am on the other side of the fence I know that he will blame me for the hold up.

He probably doesn't even have an electrician for this job yet. He'll wait around to see who wants to low ball it.

I have been to several homes that were already up and dried in, walking around with the builder trying to figure out what they want other than cheap. It's really bad when you have a 4 or 5 thousand sq. ft house already framed and the builder doesn't know if it's overhead or underground service or have the slightest idea of heating or A/C load.

Make that sucker get a full set of plans it will make it easier for someone to bid.

 

[infinity]

Why would a single family dwelling require a plan with receptacle and lighting locations? Even if they were actually on a drawing it's likely that they wouldn't get installed that way when the EC gets to the job in the field. A good EI should be able to just walk through a house and see what's right and what's wrong.

 

[iwire]

Why would a single family dwelling require a plan with receptacle and lighting locations?

I was thinking the same thing but it has been a long time since I have done a single family.

Even if they were actually on a drawing it's likely that they wouldn't get installed that way when the EC gets to the job in the field.

Ditto again.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

If the plans have not been accepted yet how could the electrician start in a week or two? Around here you won't get a permit without a decent set of plans.

 

[electricmanscott]

I have never ever wiried a single family that had electrical plans. Seems like an unnecesary waste to me.

 

[highendtron]

I think that that type of thinking is what gives electricians and builders bad names...I used to do commercial work (IBEW124 JIW) and I always appreciated prints. With large high end homes and small commercial buildings I always provide asbuilts for customers because I have been around long enough for them to pay off on remodels/additions/and changes.Builders who want to zip through, cutting corners or not meeting standards will usually end up jobless and with law problems.

 

[ivsenroute]

The municipality requires plans and so do I. Best way to go by far. There are items that the IRC requires concerning lighting for example that are not in the NEC. Smokes are another issue in that category.

You never know who is going to wire the house so knowing the type of heat and a dwelling load calculation is very important. This keeps a house with electric heat from having a 100amp panel being installed. yeah really, happened.

I just looked at a post fire complete gut and renovation job for a duplex that was wired by the plumber. More headaches on my end which meant more headaches on his end. As an example, after my rough in inspection ONE of the things he ended up doing was going through 2 cases of protector plates. Apparently he did not know enough to drill through the center of the studs vs within 3/4" of every single stud. He also wired the smokes with 12/2.

I walked into this one as a mop up and there were no plans.

Not every person is aware of what is required and you never know who is going to do the job. Electricians also come at a variety of competency levels since we don't have a state licensing program in our state.

 

[wbalsam1]

In the region I live, typically plans show details of forms, footers, foundation, super-structure/framing, fenestration, insulation and roofing. Rarely do plans include details on systems. Permits are issued based on a plan check of these phases. Not saying it's a bad idea, but wow, would plans filed for systems increase the cost of a home or what?
The inspector is required to thoroughly observe conditions in the field at systems rough-in stages to determine compliance with the applicable standards.

 

[shockin]

fenestration,

I guess I need to add that to my vocabulary. Or I could just call them windows and doors so people actually know what I'm talking about.

 

[cowboyjwc]

Ivsenroute, we require plans here too, but my first plan check corrections would have been a lot less complicated "provide complete set of plans".

We require plans, but here in CA we have lighting and switching requirements that other states may not have. I also do check for minimum outlet spacing and that GFCI's are shown.

Had a job one time where it came through plan check 3 times because they didn't want to show a light and a switch at 2 exterior doors. The lady asked me, "if you know they need to be there can't you just call it at rough electrical inspection." I said "ma'am I know exactly what's supposed to be there, those plans aren't for me, they're for the electrician that bids the job then comes out and does the job and then want's $400 in extra because the lights and switches weren't shown on the plans he bid off of and you get mad at me and him because why didn't someone tell you."

RED MARKS ON PLANS ARE NEVER A SUGGESTION.

 

[cowboyjwc]

I guess I need to add that to my vocabulary. Or I could just call them windows and doors so people actually know what I'm talking about.

You could call them that, but then you wouldn't sound really cool like you knew what you were talking about. Though I will confess I have never used the word luminaire other than in training. :grin:

 

[DanZ]

RED MARKS ON PLANS ARE NEVER A SUGGESTION.

You've never seen my bosses red marks!

If the plans have not been accepted yet how could the electrician start in a week or two? Around here you won't get a permit without a decent set of plans.

Well, they have this thing called fast tracking, where construction starts before permits are issued, and the PM in the field has no clue what he's doing, or what inspections are required...or what plans he needs to work off of...:-? :wink:

I honestly think plans for everything are a great idea! If nothing else it makes all parties aware of what's needed. I know the PME stuff I do doesn't end up getting installed the way I show it, but it shows the intent of the finished product enough that the contractors can build it.

 

[cowboyjwc]

You've never seen my bosses red marks!

There are those guys out there.


Well, they have this thing called fast tracking, where construction starts before permits are issued, and the PM in the field has no clue what he's doing, or what inspections are required...or what plans he needs to work off of...:-? :wink:

I honestly think plans for everything are a great idea! If nothing else it makes all parties aware of what's needed. I know the PME stuff I do doesn't end up getting installed the way I show it, but it shows the intent of the finished product enough that the contractors can build it.

And that's really how I look at it. I don't know about other states, but we are required to keep the plans on custom homes and commercial / industrial, for ever. So the job has to follow the plans pretty close in case there is ever a litigation and let me tell you they have come in handy a time or two. The thing is, is that it's a two sided sword, as well as the contractor, we better follow the plans too. I just got called in the other day by the planning director saying that the wrong type of exterior lights were installed on a building. I showed him on the plans that I followed the lighting schedule as it was shown. They do their own plan check and approved the wrong fixtures.:smile:

 

[DanZ]

And that's really how I look at it. I don't know about other states, but we are required to keep the plans on custom homes and commercial / industrial, for ever.

Most of Ohio is like that. The more common explanation I've heard is disaster situations. Or hostage situations.

So the job has to follow the plans pretty close in case there is ever a litigation and let me tell you they have come in handy a time or two. The thing is, is that it's a two sided sword, as well as the contractor, we better follow the plans too. I just got called in the other day by the planning director saying that the wrong type of exterior lights were installed on a building. I showed him on the plans that I followed the lighting schedule as it was shown. They do their own plan check and approved the wrong fixtures.:smile:

Most of the time the inspectors we've had are okay with minor changes (using a Lithonia 2x4 2 Lamp instead of a Day Brite 2x4 2 Lamp) or moving something a few inches.

On an odd note, my boss insists Electrical Inspectors never look at panels or panel schedules...:-?

 

[cowboyjwc]

Most of Ohio is like that. The more common explanation I've heard is disaster situations. Or hostage situations.

Most of the time the inspectors we've had are okay with minor changes (using a Lithonia 2x4 2 Lamp instead of a Day Brite 2x4 2 Lamp) or moving something a few inches.

On an odd note, my boss insists Electrical Inspectors never look at panels or panel schedules...:-?

Our plans came in pretty handy after the last big earthquake, but since we don't keep trac plans, a lot of people were out of luck.

Here changing the type of fixture would be grounds for a plan revision as they have to submit energy calcs and the fixtures calced have to match the fixtures installed. Same thing with the A/C equipment.

The problem I have with panel schedules is when they do take them straight off of the plans, but that's not what they installed.:smile: Match the actual work. I'm more concerend about things like size of main service, location of panels and major equipment. Moving something a few inches isn't really a huge concern.

 

[iwire]

I think that that type of thinking is what gives electricians and builders bad names...I used to do commercial work (IBEW124 JIW) and I always appreciated prints. With large high end homes and small commercial buildings I always provide asbuilts for customers because I have been around long enough for them to pay off on remodels/additions/and changes.Builders who want to zip through, cutting corners or not meeting standards will usually end up jobless and with law problems.

You might want to tone it down a bit.

In areas that do not require electrical plans for single family homes I hardly think that it gives electricians a bad name.

I personally see no use at all for electrical prints for basic homes.

If an electrician can not figure out what a basic home needs then maybe they should find other work.

 

[iwire]

Here changing the type of fixture would be grounds for a plan revision as they have to submit energy calcs and the fixtures calced have to match the fixtures installed. Same thing with the A/C equipment..

Bureaucratic nonsense.