Inspector cited this?

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mgookin said:
It's in case the plug gets loose and leans down, the ground pin will be what gets contacted, not the hot & neutral.
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If the cover happens to get that loose, and the plug is hangin half way out of the receptacle, the cover is more than likely going to swivel and short out from the side long before it completely falls off and drops down across the hot and the neutral. if it gets this bad before somebody decides to do something about it, they probably deserve it shorting out on them.

JAP.
 
jap said:
If the cover happens to get that loose, and the plug is hangin half way out of the receptacle, the cover is more than likely going to swivel and short out from the side long before it completely falls off and drops down across the hot and the neutral. if it gets this bad before somebody decides to do something about it, they probably deserve it shorting out on them.

JAP.
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I don't see why you're stuck on the cover. I don't think anyone is saying that the cover will come loose.

Let's assume that at least one receptacle in that room is for a ventilator. Without the ventilator the person is dead. The ventilator is on a cart. The plug is affected every day by someone moving that cart for this and that - taking vitals, changing sheets, moving patient, etc.

Having the ground pin up exposes the ground pin in the event that plug gets wiggled. This is the lesser of all evils.
 
mgookin said:
I don't see why you're stuck on the cover. I don't think anyone is saying that the cover will come loose.

Let's assume that at least one receptacle in that room is for a ventilator. Without the ventilator the person is dead. The ventilator is on a cart. The plug is affected every day by someone moving that cart for this and that - taking vitals, changing sheets, moving patient, etc.

Having the ground pin up exposes the ground pin in the event that plug gets wiggled. This is the lesser of all evils.
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That's exactly what was said in a previous post. That they installed the ground prong up to if the metal outlet cover came loose it would fall down and hang on the ground prong of the male plug not short the plug out between the hot and the neutal of the plug if the receptacle was installed ground prong down. Go back and read it.

JAP.
 
edward said:
Out of curiosity, why are you not using the clip that was suggested in post #29?
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If understand correctly about that 'clip' it would not allow the cover to be flush, (would that be a code violation as well?). Its just as easy to install a painted plastic cover since that's what the engineer wants to do anyway.
 
jap said:
That's exactly what was said in a previous post. That they installed the ground prong up to if the metal outlet cover came loose it would fall down and hang on the ground prong of the male plug not short the plug out between the hot and the neutal of the plug if the receptacle was installed ground prong down. Go back and read it.

JAP.
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Just to clarify, it's not limited to just 'falling' its if it swivel as well when it's loose. lol. Never knew this thread would cause such a conversation.


And from what I have been told about the 'ground pin up' idea, it came from some association called Institute of Electrical and Electronics Engineers, recommendations for Health Care.

You can tell them how you feel about that. ;)
 
jap said:
That's exactly what was said in a previous post. That they installed the ground prong up to if the metal outlet cover came loose it would fall down and hang on the ground prong of the male plug not short the plug out between the hot and the neutal of the plug if the receptacle was installed ground prong down. Go back and read it.

JAP.
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Do we agree that even if the coverplate stays put and the plug gets wiggled it's safer having the ground pin exposed at the top in case something contacts it?
 
mgookin said:
I don't see why you're stuck on the cover. I don't think anyone is saying that the cover will come loose.

Let's assume that at least one receptacle in that room is for a ventilator. Without the ventilator the person is dead. The ventilator is on a cart. The plug is affected every day by someone moving that cart for this and that - taking vitals, changing sheets, moving patient, etc.

Having the ground pin up exposes the ground pin in the event that plug gets wiggled. This is the lesser of all evils.
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I don't know medical equipment all that well, but most of what I have seen that is even slightly critical runs on batteries, so that they can have loss of power if anything for being able to move the patient, or other temporary conditions. I would hope if it is a machine for something really critical that there is indication of AC power loss so that will be recognized long before the battery goes dead.
 
I would put a plastic plate on it and if the engineer (or whoever wrote the spec) doesn't like it I would tell them to take it up with the inspector or whoever owns the transformer. Besides the spec there is no requirement for the SS plates. Even though many OR's, Endo rooms, CT Scans, Triage rooms, and other patient care areas I have done have used SS plates, we have also done a good number using plastic and / or nylon plates for their non conductive properties.

If a spec for something this trivial is holding up a project I have to wonder how many big items are being missed.

Roger
 
jap said:
The thought that installing the Ground Pin up on a receptacle,so that if the metal face plate ever gets loose and falls down on the receptacle,it wont short it out, is just simply comical to me.



JAP>
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It happens, and most of the time with wall warts that need to use the center screw. In one instance, the screw was removed and just as the wart was far enough out, the metal plate fell across the hot and neutral. Big bang and lots of sparks. Breaker held good for a few seconds. It burnt the crap out of the cover and pretty much ruined the wall wart. Luckily, no one got injured. I wish I had pics.

I deciphered the label on the OPs wall wart.

1. Risk of Electric Shock. Dry Location Use Only.

2. To reduce the risk of electric shock-disconnect power to the receptacle before installing or removing the unit, When removing receptacle cover screw, cover may fall across plug pins or receptacle may become displace. Use only with duplex receptacle having center screw. Secured unit in place by receptacle cover screw.
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All it would take for the wall wart maker to do would be to use a brass bushing for the screw hole. Then, when the wart is tightened down, grounding integrity will be the same as without the wart.

Personally, I don't see how a wart that impedes the grounding of a cover made it through the listing process. Especially if all it takes is one simple addition of a small bushing.
 
K8MHZ said:
It happens, and most of the time with wall warts that need to use the center screw. In one instance, the screw was removed and just as the wart was far enough out, the metal plate fell across the hot and neutral. Big bang and lots of sparks. Breaker held good for a few seconds. It burnt the crap out of the cover and pretty much ruined the wall wart. Luckily, no one got injured. I wish I had pics.

I deciphered the label on the OPs wall wart.
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Which just reinforces my statement about the problem being with what was plugged into the Outlet,,,, not the Outlet itself.
If you have this much trouble with a simple plug in transformer, one might want to stop and think about using something else, especially if its in an area as the OP indicated it was in.

JAP>
 
K8MHZ said:
All it would take for the wall wart maker to do would be to use a brass bushing for the screw hole. Then, when the wart is tightened down, grounding integrity will be the same as without the wart.

Personally, I don't see how a wart that impedes the grounding of a cover made it through the listing process. Especially if all it takes is one simple addition of a small bushing.
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Agreed.

JAP>
 
mgookin said:
Do we agree that even if the coverplate stays put and the plug gets wiggled it's safer having the ground pin exposed at the top in case something contacts it?
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If I felt that way, I would install all of my receptacles ground pin up, regardless of where they were located, which I do not, so , no I dont guess I do agree, Along with about 95% of other electricians that I know, that dont install their receptacles ground pin up either.

JAP>
 
jap said:
If I felt that way, I would install all of my receptacles ground pin up, regardless of where they were located, which I do not, so , no I dont guess I do agree, Along with about 95% of other electricians that I know, that dont install their receptacles ground pin up either.

JAP>
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One of my doctor's offices has all the receptacles with the ground pin up. Recently, they got dozens of small UPS units to back up all their computers and network. They plug directly into the receptacle, and then the device plugs into the UPS. The UPS has controls and a small LCD readout. Well, with the ground pin up, all the UPS units are upside down (like the wall wart in the pic) and the readout faces the floor.
 
K8MHZ said:
One of my doctor's offices has all the receptacles with the ground pin up. Recently, they got dozens of small UPS units to back up all their computers and network. They plug directly into the receptacle, and then the device plugs into the UPS. The UPS has controls and a small LCD readout. Well, with the ground pin up, all the UPS units are upside down (like the wall wart in the pic) and the readout faces the floor.
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If the receptacle were high on the wall that may be just what we want:happyyes:

So now the new rule is ground up if receptacle is high on the wall, ground down if low in the wall.:ashamed1:
 
Just a heads up, please stick with the OPs topic.:)

If this thread continues into the great ground up ground down debate posts will be removed.

If anyone wants more info on ground up or ground down please go to the forums FAQ.
 
Thanks Dave.:thumbsup:

People get passionate about that topic and it will become a never ending thread of the same things being said over and over. That being the case we have pretty much made it a taboo topic here.
 
iwire said:
Thanks Dave.:thumbsup:

People get passionate about that topic and it will become a never ending thread of the same things being said over and over. That being the case we have pretty much made it a taboo topic here.
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So that is how you got the majority of your 47,000+ posts?:D
 
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