Inspector Issues

[kpepin]

I don't know what goes in other parts of the country, but it seems to me that some of the local electrical inspectors I've had to deal with focus on the little things and ignore the really important things.

We had one inspector in town that would just breeze through a rough in inspection and if everything in the walls looked neat, it passed. When it came to a final inspection, he would walk around with a plug tester and check random receptacles to make sure they were wired correctly.

In another town, the inspector actually measured the location of just about every cable support to make sure they were close enough to the box.

I can't recall ever hearing a local inspector ask what size wire I pulled to a panel and what the OCP was, or check the Nameplate on a motor and make sure the proper wire was pulled.

I'm sure there are some very good inspectors out there that know some of the more serious violations and actually check for them.

I think there are greater issues to be concerned with than if I supported an MC 12.5 inches from a box.

(before I get responses about being bitter about being failed for a small infraction, never happened. Just curious to hear about how other local inspectors operate)

 

[peter d]

Re: Inspector Issues

I often have the same complaint about the inspectors in my area. They often let many violations go, and make up code rules out of the think blue sky in the process.

Like requiring the #8 bond around a pool to be green insulated wire.

However, inspectors in Farifield County, CT (adjacent to New York City metro area) are known to be incredibly tough, often checking every single receptacle on final inspection.

 

[lle]

Re: Inspector Issues

Measuring the strap distance and other "not-so-major-deal" items is usually done by inspectors who have no clue what they're doing to begin with. This comes from little or NO experience in the field itself. They passed the open book test, but don't understand what they just read to pass the test.

When I first started, there was little or no grounding/bonding being done. Nail-up boxes were used for floor receptacles. 14gauge wire with 20amp OCP....the list goes on.

I don't usually bug my contractors about the little things. Having done the wiring myself I know what to look for. And I have pulled an occasional staple to show them the sheating was pierced as well as one of the conductors...I can spot that stuff across the room.


Not all the inspectors are bad.

 

[highkvoltage]

Re: Inspector Issues

Ile. You hit the nail right on the head most have little experience in the field. And even a bigger percentage have experience in commerical/industrial wiring and work off a sheet either they made up or their supervisor made up for them. It is very frustrating because the hacks around befriend them and know what they look for and butcher the rest of the job. And if you really want to get frustrated build a substation and have the local inspector look it over.

 

[sandsnow]

Re: Inspector Issues

I could write volumes on inspectors I have crossed paths with who do not have a clue. Inspectors should have direct experience in the trade they are inspecting.

An inspector should be able to eyeball support distances and it's not the end of the world if the MC is supported 14 inches from the box or 6 1/2 feet between supports. I get the tape measure out for workspace and secondary tap rules (although an extra foot won't be problem)
You better have your ducks in a row for firestopping because peoples lives depend on it.

 

[electricmanscott]

Re: Inspector Issues

Guys don't look, Or call their boss and complain.

[ December 23, 2004, 06:44 AM: Message edited by: electricmanscott ]

 

[petersonra]

Re: Inspector Issues

I am not an inspector per se, however one of my many tasks is to make sure the panels I design are correctly built.

After a while, you get a feel for whether its right or not. I'm not quite sure how to describe what happens, but some times I just know the work is going to be a mess and I will have to ring out every wire and check every wire label, and other times I just know it will be right (but still check enough to convince myself my gut feeling is accurate).

 

[sandsnow]

Re: Inspector Issues

Originally posted by electricmanscott:
Or call their boss and complain.

Bravo for you Scott. There would be a lot less of incompetent ones if everyone did that. I strive to follow just what the Code says. As you say I'm not perfect. I have no ego to bruise. If you call my boss, and he overrides me I would not take it out on you.

 

[jwelectric]

Re: Inspector Issues

The problem with most code enforcement officials has nothing to do with their knowledge of the code, their disposition, or the job that they are looking at. The biggest problem is with the electrical contractor that is doing the work!
Having said this let me explain my thoughts. With the economy being in the state that it is we find cross training of the CEO (code enforcement official) from trade to trade as well as the increase in manufactured homes where one permit four inspections come into play. With all this training how can anyone expect one person to retain all this information in the short amount of time that they have to get their certificates in all four of the trades.
Now why is it the electricians fault? Simple, we can be part of the problem or part of the cure. When I have a difference of opinion with the inspector I always approach him with my code book in hand. We discuss the difference and come up with a solution together. I find that this help us both to better understand the intent of the code. When all else fails then I take to his boss.

 

[bthielen]

Re: Inspector Issues

jwelectric,

I am with you nearly 100%. These days, we are too much against accepting responsibility and too quick to look for somewhere or someone to place blame.

Where I disagree is that it is not entirely the electrician's fault. Pride is found on both sides of the fence and both parties need to be willing to respectfully discuss their views without being defensive.

Bob

 

[jwelectric]

Re: Inspector Issues

Let me give an example at the risk of starting something. I was turned down on rough once for the vents not being installed on the bath fan. The heat man already had his rough passed. I went to the inspection dept and told the CEO that I couldn?t find the article that covered the installation of vents. Did I carry this too far? Should I have installed the vent and forgot about it? No, by taking the time to ask I saved myself the cost of vent pipe on all the houses that I do in that area from now on. I got the mechanical official to look at his job a little closer and both CEOs to understand that venting falls under HVAC and not electrical. Some contractors will only collect or pay at inspections therefore knowing where the responsibility lays is important. The discussion went back and forth about the bath vents for over a month as to who should put them in, but now in this jurisdiction the electrician is not turned down for bath fan vents. Any thoughts?

 

[charlie]

Re: Inspector Issues

The problem with some AHJs:

Rule #1 - The inspector is always right!

Rule #2 - When the inspector is found to be wrong, see rule #1!


The problem with some electricians:

Rule #1 - The electrician is always right!

Rule #2 - When the electrician is found to be wrong, see rule #1!

This was adapted from the rules of my home and in place of wife . . .

 

[roger]

Re: Inspector Issues

JW, just out of curiosity, don't you have any Contract Documents (Prints and Specifications) that spell out your contractual responsibilities, or in the least don't you submit a scope letter taking exception or excluding certain grey areas with your proposal?

The above scenario shouldn't have been an issue at all for the inspectors or the contractors.

Roger

 

[jwelectric]

Re: Inspector Issues

Roger
I agree that this should not have been a problem but everybody became complicit with the last person there will vent the bath fans. I don?t vent because of liability issues.
Yes I do a proposal for every job I do no matter how big or small. There are a couple of things that I don?t do in residential single family dwellings. 1- I don?t do vents for fans bath or kitchens, 2- I don?t do draft stopping (fire stop). These are outlined in my proposal. The CEO has never read my bids so sometimes I have the good fortune of teaching a CEO what the NEC states about both.
The biggest problem I see in the field is a CEO turns a job down and the contractor runs and fixes what he said whether the CEO is right or wrong. The rules are simple, turn me down, then show me why. I am not right all the time nor is the CEO. The NEC is the rule book that we ALL must go by unless amendments has been adopted by the local jurisdiction.

 

[roger]

Re: Inspector Issues

Originally posted by jwelectric:

The biggest problem I see in the field is a CEO turns a job down and the contractor runs and fixes what he said whether the CEO is right or wrong. The rules are simple, turn me down, then show me why. I am not right all the time nor is the CEO. The NEC is the rule book that we ALL must go by unless amendments has been adopted by the local jurisdiction.

You and I are on the same page here.

Roger

 

[electricmanscott]

Re: Inspector Issues

CEO ? That's a new one to me. JW what would a liability issue be with bathroom venting? Everything you do has a liability issue. Why wouold this particular one be an issue more than anything else?

 

[jwelectric]

Re: Inspector Issues

Scott
In some of the jurisdictions around the Piedmont North Carolina area the bath vent is required to be vented through the roof. The only one I ever vented backed up with water and broke through the bathroom ceiling. The general contractor charged me $500 to repair the sheetrock and repaint. I ask if it had filled with rain but was told that it was backed up condensation. Who knows it may have been a leaking roof, I know that I weigh $500 less. I wasn?t contacted about this until after every thing was torn out. I could have fought it but elected to pay and learn.
Now at the risk of running this thread to death how many know what size fan would be required for a bath of 90 sq. ft. What size do most electricians install? Most of what I see the electrical contractors around here install is 50 cfm in all baths. Don?t quote me but 50 cfm is good for 25 sq. ft I think.
CEO= Code Enforcement Official, lets not forget that they are a sworn officer.

 

[electricmanscott]

Re: Inspector Issues

JW, if the venting was installed properly that would not have happened. If installed incorrectly the venting would certainly fill up with water from condensation and could conceivably come through the ceiling. To me that isn't a liability issue it's a workmanship issue. A 50 cfm fan is actually good for a bath of about 46 sq feet. For a 90 sq foot bath you would need 96.30 cfm. Also I was just making the point that the term CEO was new to me. On most boards "AHJ" is used as it is also used in the NEC.

 

[websparky]

Re: Inspector Issues

Hi Guys,

Here is what is required as a minimum from the building code.

2003IRC
R303.3 Bathrooms. Bathrooms, water closet compartments and other similar rooms shall be provided with aggregate glazing area in windows of not less than 3 square feet (0.279 m2), one-half of which must be openable.
Exception: The glazed areas shall not be required where artificial light and a mechanical ventilation system are provided. The minimum ventilation rates shall be 50 cfm (23.6 L/s) for intermittent ventilation or 20 cfm (9.4 L/s) for continuous ventilation. Ventilation air from the space shall be exhausted directly to the outside.

 

[jwelectric]

Re: Inspector Issues

Dave
Good deal, I was hoping that someone would quote the mechanical or building code requirement for bath fans. The venting requirements are listed in the venting section of the mechanical code. The wiring requirements are outlined in the NEC. Therefore it could take up to three different inspections for one piece of equipment.

Electricmanscott
Weather you realize it or not poor workmanship is a liability; a poorly done job will always cost more in the end. As to the AHJ, I have no objection to referring to the ?Inspector? that way, I just feel that they should be shown the respect of being called what they are, ?Code Enforcement Officials.? I will reason this by asking that if I am turned down for a job and go to the department head and he passes the job then who is the AHJ? I pray that I have not offended anyone and beg for forgiveness if I have.