Inspector out of bounds?

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electricmanscott

electricmanscott

Senior Member
Location
Boston, MA
Occupation
Massachusetts Master Electrician, one man show.
I know my opinion on this but I am sure others will vary.
Wired a second floor bedroom and bathroom dormer addtion and smokes for whole house. Fed circuits from existing Cutler Hammer panel that is in great shape. Inspector says "Since you connected to the panel you are responsible to show me a good ground" (Exact words left on my answering machine) And he rambled on to say the gec is run through a changeover connector to emt and down to the water main where the meter is not jummped. He wants me to disconnect this setup and burndy to the existing gec then run pvc down to the water main and of course jump the meter. Oddly the job was inspected a while ago with no problems. He says he ws there to inspect the smoke detectors. As far as I (And Mass Electrical Code) are concerned this is not my problem to deal with. He should send a letter to the homeowner with his concerns and let them hire me to correct it if they wish. It is an existing installation and if he wanted to he could probably find a dozen things that are not in compliance with the code.
 
Re: Inspector out of bounds?

How dare you question the man :D

Replace a violation with a violation???

Mass rule #3 should set him straight...

Or ask for the disapproved violation in writing according to MGL 143 section 3L and appeal to the State according to MGL 143 section 3P(if you have the time and energy)...

shortcircuit2

[ March 20, 2005, 04:12 PM: Message edited by: shortcircuit2 ]
 
Re: Inspector out of bounds?

Seems that you did your job.Wire bathroom and bedroom.He does have the right to force any not to code items that he may see on inspection to be repaired,but that is not on you.The homeowner needs to hire either you or another electrician to repair what you did not contract to do.As to this supposed violation it seems this was the original install that passed.Ask to talk to his boss if you cant reason with him.Have them check as to when house was built who inspected it.
 
Re: Inspector out of bounds?

i attended an nfpa-nec conference back in 87 in philadelphia. there was much discussion about the liability of the person doing work. there were many cases where an electrician had done some work and fires had started, even though the hazards were not created by the electricians. some faced criminal charges. they were held liable because they did work on a unsafe system. i remember 2 cities, new york and chicago. they all were unaware, did not matter.
 
Re: Inspector out of bounds?

i live in california and i have not heard of this happening here. do the inspectors in chicago check the wiring to clear you to do the work? i would be afraid to do any work on an existing system, i would check but i could miss something. i hope i am not hijacking this thread but it does seem to be relevant. what makes things worse is that some of these cases discussed did not find the point of origin, they just blamed it on electrical.
 
Re: Inspector out of bounds?

A lot has changed since'87.
What can happen in our jurisdiction is, when an inspection is made for a permitted job, if we see other work that looks like a life safety issue [not old existing work that may not conform to todays code - such as receptacle outlet spacing], we write the violation to the building owner, with the building department receiving a copy, then the building department takes it from there if the choose to do so - my experience is some do, some don't :confused:

If you do perform work on electrical circuits that are nonconforming, most likely you will be bringing them up to the current code.
But you are not responsible for nonconforming ckts, etc... that you are not working on in the same building.
Not a bad way to have more work come your way though - remember life safety types of violations.
 
Re: Inspector out of bounds?

i think that is why the topic was being discussed in the first place. if electricians are going to jail and losing everything they have, something had to be done. i don't know what happens in civil court but inspectors were mentioned as being liable as well. the electrician from chicago just stated you touch it you own it, in 2005. i have heard " you touch it you own it" many times in my career.
 
Re: Inspector out of bounds?

I do not think this is an issue that can be cookie cutter clear. Therecan be no automatic assumption that circuits that are not part of the circuits you are working on are safe, have ever been safe, and may have been turned off in the panel. Electrical contractor does not know and turns them on, fire occurs, and bingo you are hit.

Insurance companies are going to go this direction all the time, if they can, unless it is not in their economic interest to do do so. Counties often require additions to existing houses with different types of work. Almost any remodel triggers SD add on even if no electrical work. Many require ground/bond corrections with panel work. Since you added to a panel, that panel may need to brought up to code.

You cannot connect to a non-compliant panel without assuming that there might be some update required It seems that this is called quite often. The logic is obvious. It just seems unreasonable. There are times when inspectors do not call this, or see the different points of view and pretend not to see.

All new electricalwork needs to be to code at the time of permit issuance. Connecting to any unsafe condition is an automatic assumption of liability; connecting to a panel with ground and bond problems is not a code compliant installation.

sorry for length, too tired to correct redundancies.

paul :)
 
Re: Inspector out of bounds?

Originally posted by chicago_sparky:
chicago requires us to fix it...no matter what. As soon as you touch it, it's your responsibility.
Click to expand...
I didn't touch it. I don't even think I looked at it.
 
Re: Inspector out of bounds?

This could get out of hand fast.Customer calls because a light stops working,you find bad switch ,replace switch and light now works .Do you now need to check everything in the house ? 30 minute job just turned into 3 hours and no way you can see behind them walls.If this becomes the way we must do things then we will be seeing a lot more handy men
 
Re: Inspector out of bounds?

When ever we go into a customers home and run a line into an existing loadcenter we always check the ground connection. If it's fine we leave it, if it's not to code we replace it with an explanation to the customer that it is an extra cost added to the bill. The customer is happy and safe, the inspector is happy,and we get paid extra and we are happy.
 
Re: Inspector out of bounds?

Originally posted by willyj:
If it's fine we leave it, if it's not to code we replace it with an explanation to the customer that it is an extra cost added to the bill. The customer is happy and safe, the inspector is happy,and we get paid extra and we are happy.
Click to expand...
Are you informing the customer first about this extra, unexpected charge? :eek:

I would refuse to pay it.
 
Re: Inspector out of bounds?

Originally posted by apauling:
I do not think this is an issue that can be cookie cutter clear. ................ Since you added to a panel, that panel may need to brought up to code.

You cannot connect to a non-compliant panel without assuming that there might be some update required It seems that this is called quite often. The logic is obvious.
Click to expand...
Hi Paul sorry for hacking up your post but it was kind of long to repost.

The thing is, this is cookie cutter clear for those of us in MA as Scott is.

Mass Code rules
Rule 3. Additions or modifications to an existing installation shall be made in accordance with this Code without bringing the remaining part of the installation into compliance with the requirements of this Code. The installation shall not create a violation of this Code, nor shall it increase the magnitude of an existing violation.
Click to expand...
I am sure Scott's new work was up to current code and he did not increase the magnitude of an existing violation.

The existing violations should be brought up to the owner and then the owner can either ask Scott to do it or price shop.

Mass Code Rules
Rule 4. Where an actual hazard exists, the owner of the property shall be notified in writing by the authority enforcing this Code. (See M.G.L. c. 166, ?? 32 and 33, for enforcement authority.)
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IMO the inspector is passing their own job duties off on Scott to explain and notify the owner.

[ March 21, 2005, 05:53 PM: Message edited by: iwire ]
 
Re: Inspector out of bounds?

I like the way you put that Bob. If there is an existing hazard what in green blazes is the inspector doing wasting everybody's time instead of actually addressing the hazard. Not signing off on Scott's work doesn't make the hazard Scott's responsibility.

By the way I looked through some codes last night and didn't find anything that requires a that when an EGC connection is made the electrode system must be verified. I'm not saying that there isn't something similar somewhere, just that I didn't find anything.
 
Re: Inspector out of bounds?

Peter D, Yes we always give the customers up front costs and explain it is for their safety and have yet to have one of them refuse it. It makes a job complete.
 
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