Inspector out of bounds?

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Re: Inspector out of bounds?

Willy, again, the gec connection to the water service is the question here. I did not see it, I did not look for it, I did not make a point to look at it. I guess then I am negligent as you said. :roll: I am sure thee are many more things I did not see or look for and therefore bring to code. If I looked for violations in every house I went into I would be in each house for days. I was there to do a job and I did it. To code. End of story. There have been plenty of times that I see something in my travels and fix it no questions asked no extra charge. So yes I sleep well at night. I hope you are not an inspector. Anyway, the problem is solved. I ran into the homeowner today and mentioned what the inspector said. He said he'll pass on the repair. The inspector signed off when he was there and he is selling the house.
 
Re: Inspector out of bounds?

Originally posted by willyj:
I assume that you all give estimates.
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No that is not how everyone works, by the time I arrive to do a job a contract has been signed with a scope of work narrowly defined by our sales department.

The customer is expecting the work to be done for that pre agreed price.

Originally posted by willyj:
I believe in doing a through job for all our customers and our customers appreciate it and the inspectors respect it.
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Thats great and I am sure your customers are always happy about these added costs. ;)

In my mind that is not the point. This thread is not about going beyond the NEC by choice which we can always do. This thread is about an inspector in a state that has clearly defined rules trying to go beyond his authority.
 
Re: Inspector out of bounds?

I agree that any extras needed because of unseen or unexspected violations need be addressed by the inspector.Yes he might hold up your inspection as a means to force the home owner to comply.That part is questionable but i do see his reasoning.You are to blame if your contract did not make that clear and your bill should be paid for what you contracted to do.
Many years ago on a 4 unit building i called for a rough electric my job was fine but the building had some other very serious violations and needed red taged,not the normal red tag but one that shuts the job down right now untill corrected.As a favor i asked him if he would sign the permit for my work first and then shut the job down.Sometimes inspectors will work with you.

[ March 23, 2005, 07:18 PM: Message edited by: jimwalker ]
 
Re: Inspector out of bounds?

Jim how is it right for an ispector to hold a person over a barrel when that person has nothing to do with a violation the inspector might find? It is totaly between the inspector and the property owner.
 
Re: Inspector out of bounds?

Scott, you've been around long enough to know how Gloom and Doom see things, pretty much in a Salvador Dali type reality :D

Roger
 
Re: Inspector out of bounds?

I did not say it is right.But it is the fastest way he can get it taken care of.I did say it was questionable.They will and do do it here.
 
Re: Inspector out of bounds?

again, the NEC is not the only code that governs work on an occupancy. if you define your contract to pass inspection for the whole electrical part of the job, you are assuming any additional requirements. If you're contract merely stipulates that the work shall be to code, the contract is complete without the inspection.

Going beyond the NEC is quite within the rights of inspectors, assuming of course, that they are following jurisdictional policies that are adopted within the constraints of the legal system that governs them. And there are building codes that stipulate electrical installation parameters.

checking for local amendments that pertain to electrical installations is the smart move, as it will let you know if it is the mistake of an inspector, or jurisdictional policy. one you win, one you lose.

paul. :cool:
 
Re: Inspector out of bounds?

Paul,
Going beyond the NEC is quite within the rights of inspectors, assuming of course, that they are following jurisdictional policies that are adopted within the constraints of the legal system that governs them. And there are building codes that stipulate electrical installation parameters.
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good save, although it may be to late to get the ball back and score. :D :D :D

Roger
 
Re: Inspector out of bounds?

Going beyond the NEC is quite within the rights of inspectors,
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Why even have NEC requirements then? Just allow the inspectors to require what ever they want at any given time. :roll: Paul, your statement is part of the problem with people in this business. The "Whatever the inspector wants" and "You touch it you own it" mentality. Just because a person works in structure does not mean that they now "own" all the violations in that structure nor should it mean that, nor can the inpspector require more than the NEC just because "I like it this way."
Here in Mass we have rules in place that address this very thing. Although unfortunately there are inspectors that don't follow them and electricians that don't know them.

[ March 24, 2005, 07:11 AM: Message edited by: electricmanscott ]
 
Re: Inspector out of bounds?

Originally posted by roger:
Scott, you've been around long enough to know how Gloom and Doom see things, pretty much in a Salvador Dali type reality :D

Roger
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I think that this should actually be called the "Gloom and Doom" forum as whatever topic comes up it eventually will become just that. Examples, lighted closet bar, receptacle in drawer, service disconnect location and on and on.
 
Re: Inspector out of bounds?

Scott,
Please call me Bill as my mother used to call me Willy when she was upset with me, ok call me Willy :) . I've also said the inspector is wrong but you have gotten your knickers in a twist over a minor matter as you can attest to by the outcome. I also work in the fair state of Mass. and have had my share of run ins with inspectors but have always been able to work it out. I have also tangled with a state inspector whose motto was whether your right or wrong he works for the consumer and you better fix whatever problem there is. That also worked out fine.
So from years of experience myself and my employees have learned to look out for violations and inform the customer there by eliminating pressure situations with inspectors.
Bill
 
Re: Inspector out of bounds?

Scott, going beyond the NEC is not a matter of whim. The UBC, UPC, UMC, CEC,CBC, IRC, IBC, and other codes govern parts of buildings. If you contract within a state or area that has special requirements, or work on jobs that require ADA type work, these can and do impact jobs, and as a contractor it is your job not to just know what is in your contract, and how to do it to NEC standards, but to also know contracting requirements in your area.

Being proficient in the NEC is not enough to be a licensed contractor in most areas, as other requirements are added on. In California for example, a c-10 licensed contractor is responsible for local amendments, even if not stipulated on theplans. It's tough luck if you don't know that the first time, and stupid if you are still arguing about it the second time.

None of this is the whim of the inspector, well at least the parts that i am talking about. Sure there are inspectors who don't know and invent code. You have the right to contest the inspection. But it is a moot point if the jurisdiction has correctly amended their code, even if it is outside the NEC for electrical work. It is your job as contractor to know local amendments, not argue their arbitrariness.

paul.
 
Re: Inspector out of bounds?

Originally posted by apauling:
It is your job as contractor to know local amendments, not argue their arbitrariness.

paul.
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I'm pretty sure Scott, Bob (iwire) and the other Massachusetts electricians that frequent here are pretty well versed in their state code and laws, as their many posts attest.
 
Re: Inspector out of bounds?

I would not argue with a legally adopted law being enforced. In fact I would argue that they absolutlety should be enforced. That is not what this thread was about. This is about the inspector playing by the rules just as he would expect us to. I did, he did not. My work was done to code plain and simple. The job was complete. He was there to inspect my work. The grounding electrode installation was not my work.(It's probably been there for 30 years) He had a problem with it and he is required to notify the property owner in writing. Instead he called me and said "I want you to fix this" Not happening. Easy fix sure. Not the point. I have way too many things to do than run around fixing things that the inspector does not like, essentially having to do his job by convincing the owner that it has to be done.
 
Re: Inspector out of bounds?

Paul. [/QUOTE]I'm pretty sure Scott, Bob (iwire) and the other Massachusetts electricians that frequent here are pretty well versed in their state code and laws, as their many posts attest. [/QB][/QUOTE]

I appreciate your upmost respect for Mass. electricians. However Mass. General law concerns chapter 13 section 32 through chapter 112 section 64 and 237 cmr (code of Massachusetts regulations) through 527 cmr and by looking at the state web site www.state.ma.us/reg/boards/el/ there are more out there that don't read than do.
Bill
 
Re: Inspector out of bounds?

WHATS GOOD FOR THE GOOSE IS GOOD FOR THE GANDER

From Scott

"This is about the inspector playing by the rules just as he would expect us to."

I see it every day, and lack of proper training is a big part of the reason for this ongoing problem. Not just code training, but people skills training.
 
Re: Inspector out of bounds?

people skills training
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No kidding. But I don't know if you can train a nasty guy to be not nasty. I think San Francisco shops around for those guys.
 
Re: Inspector out of bounds?

Scott: you are still referring to the NEC and "your" work and implying that the inspector cannot go beyond that. That's what is not true. At least in California, contracting hardly ever stays within a single code as the building code specifies items that are not within the NEC, for example location of smoke detectors. Most jurisdictions have amendments and these do not need to be in the NEC, so being NEC compliant does not guarantee a final in many, many places.

You said you understood that, and then just restated that it was the NEC and your work. You do notindicate that you even know if there are local amendments. so which is it?

paul :cool:
 
Re: Inspector out of bounds?

Originally posted by apauling:
Scott: you are still referring to the NEC and "your" work and implying that the inspector cannot go beyond that. That's what is not true. At least in California, contracting hardly ever stays within a single code as the building code specifies items that are not within the NEC, for example location of smoke detectors. Most jurisdictions have amendments and these do not need to be in the NEC, so being NEC compliant does not guarantee a final in many, many places.

You said you understood that, and then just restated that it was the NEC and your work. You do notindicate that you even know if there are local amendments. so which is it?

paul :cool:
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The situation that I started this thread has to do with the NEC and an inspector. That is why I keep referring to it. In this case that is what matters.
As far as amendments go we are under the 2005 NEC with State amendments. The wiring inspectors enforce the electrical code so again more reason to point out the relationship between the two. Other parts of the code such as smoke detectors and bathroom ventilation are enforced by building or fire officials and of course I would have to comply with the requirements.
I'll say just for the sake of saying it again. my work was NEC compliant and there is no reason to not pass it. Anything else is between him and the owner.
 
Re: Inspector out of bounds?

Scott, I might have missed it somewhere, Is the building grounded at all? Is the inspector asking (I mean ordering) you to add the water pipe electrode or get the building grounded?
 
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