Inspector requiring afci for fixed electric baseboard heating

[Twoskinsoneman]

Because an arc fault can occur anywhere in a circuit, not just at the receps.

But the code does allow the use of recept AFCI though they aren't available

 

[480sparky]

But the code does allow the use of recept AFCI though they aren't available

But how much of the circuit still would be protected if you did have them to install?

 

[76nemo]

One solid question I have going as well as many others is that if AFCI protection can fit into the size of a single pole breaker, than why has no manufacture come up with a single-gang device that can't suit the same needs:-? There would be such a HUGE market for this and much money to the supplier that could engineer this. Where exactly does the problem lie in the market, and why has this not been resolved:-? I JUST DON'T GET IT!

 

[480sparky]

One solid question I have going as well as many others is that if AFCI protection can fit into the size of a single pole breaker, than why has no manufacture come up with a single-gang device that can't suit the same needs:-? There would be such a HUGE market for this and much money to the supplier that could engineer this. Where exactly does the problem lie in the market, and why has this not been resolved:-? I JUST DON'T GET IT!

As I understand it, the first AFCI requirements was to be just receptacles in bedrooms, so makers started to put together AFCI receps. By the time the proposal made it through the CMP, it was changed to 'all outlets' and not just receps. So their R&D on AFCI receps was a total loss.

I have heard that P&S actually has some AFCI receps that were produced for listing & testing purposes, but only a very small number and they are not the combination type as required by the '08.

Baybe they're currently working on such a critter, and we'll see them soon as well as some changes in the '11 to allow them.

 

[Twoskinsoneman]

But how much of the circuit still would be protected if you did have them to install?

In my opinion not enough of it. Unlike a GFCI which will protect the user IMO the AFCI should have to be a breaker. We all have heard of the nail going through the cable that caused an arc and fire... If it happens before the first recpt.... bummer.

 

[76nemo]

In my opinion not enough of it. Unlike a GFCI which will protect the user IMO the AFCI should have to be a breaker. We all have heard of the nail going through the cable that caused an arc and fire... If it happens before the first recpt.... bummer.

What about the question of where the circuit originates and adding to existing circuits? Do you have any idea how much dead face AFCI's would market just as GFCI's have marketed???????????

 

[76nemo]

What about the question of where the circuit originates and adding to existing circuits? Do you have any idea how much dead face AFCI's would market just as GFCI's have marketed???????????

These devices would be worth just as much if not ten fold to what GFCI devices are worth.

 

[480sparky]

These devices would be worth just as much if not ten fold to what GFCI devices are worth.

But where, if they were available, would you be able to (legally in the '08 language) be able to use them?

 

[76nemo]

But where, if they were available, would you be able to (legally in the '08 language) be able to use them?

Any existing circuit added to where AFCI's are called for based on old work and '05.


EDIT KEN: You asked about '08. Sorry.

 

[480sparky]

Any existing circuit added to where AFCI's are called for based on old work and '05.

Even based on the '05: So you'd rather install an AFCI recep and pull the NM out and install a metal raceway all the way from the panel to that first recep instead of an AFCI breaker?

 

[Twoskinsoneman]

These devices would be worth just as much if not ten fold to what GFCI devices are worth.

It's not kosher to quote yourself

I was just saying in my most HUMBLE opinion it defeats the purpose. If your through a AFCI breaker on the circuit your extending and it trips than there is a problem that needs correcting. I don't like the recpt AFCI idea.

Probably not a popular idea and thats cool. But AFCI are IMO great technology. Even though the original thought might have been to stop fires created by " lamp cords being crushed by end tables" they should be implemented to protect the entire circuit.

 

[brother]

I am soo glad that my area has limit the expansion of afci's. I really believe they are over rated, and to require a 'product' to be installed without having them prove themselves in the field first is a big mistake.

 

[76nemo]

It's not kosher to quote yourself

I was just saying in my most HUMBLE opinion it defeats the purpose. If your through a AFCI breaker on the circuit your extending and it trips than there is a problem that needs correcting. I don't like the recpt AFCI idea.

Probably not a popular idea and thats cool. But AFCI are IMO great technology. Even though the original thought might have been to stop fires created by " lamp cords being crushed by end tables" they should be implemented to protect the entire circuit.

Okay, so are you saying you don't understand the line and load concept of these devices and how they could blossom?????

 

[480sparky]

I am soo glad that my area has limit the expansion of afci's. I really believe they are over rated, and to require a 'product' to be installed without having them prove themselves in the field first is a big mistake.

210.12 started in the '02. You never wired anything to the '02 or '05 Codes?

 

[76nemo]

210.12 started in the '02. You never wired anything to the '02 or '05 Codes?

You ever wire anything with shared neutrals? That is such a bold and arrogant statement to you Ken, your experience far outways mine. I don't mean you any disrespect in any means. I say an AFCI device other than breakers has a HUGE market. Please show me differently. Again Ken, I ask this WITH ALL DUE RESPECT!!!!!!!!!

 

[480sparky]

You ever wire anything with shared neutrals? That is such a bold and arrogant statement to you Ken, your experience far outways mine. I don't mean you any disrespect in any means. I say an AFCI device other than breakers has a HUGE market. Please show me differently. Again Ken, I ask this WITH ALL DUE RESPECT!!!!!!!!!

This was the statement I was referring to:

I am soo glad that my area has limit the expansion of afci's. I really believe they are over rated, and to require a 'product' to be installed without having them prove themselves in the field first is a big mistake.

AFCI's are not a new requirement to the '08. They were required in the '02 and the '05 in limited areas. That was the 'proving ground in the field' for them.

Edit to add: Yes, I can see a market for them, especially in older homes that are full of MWBCs. AFCI receps would be the solution save for AFCI 2-pole breakers. However, given the current requirement for metal raceways to the first outlet, an AFCI recep still is severely limited in usage unless you work in Chicago.

 

[76nemo]

This was the statement I was referring to:



AFCI's are not a new requirement to the '08. They were required in the '02 and the '05 in limited areas. That was the 'proving ground in the field' for them.

With ALL DUE RESPECT KEN, proving grounds for what???? We can all agree the AFCI concept was a good idea. The board figured we needed to start in the bedrooms. Is that really so???? MAYBE, but now we are OT.

 

[wwhitney]

I would think the biggest market for an AFCI receptacle or deadfront device would be for extending existing circuits. For example, you want to add a receptacle, perhaps on an existing non-AFCI MWBC, so you find an existing receptacle to take the feed from, swap it out with an AFCI receptacle, and now all your new work is AFCI protected. That would avoid any violations, yes?

Cheers, Wayne

 

[480sparky]

With ALL DUE RESPECT KEN, proving grounds for what???? We can all agree the AFCI concept was a good idea. The board figured we needed to start in the bedrooms. Is that really so???? MAYBE, but now we are OT.

Proving grounds for their effectiveness, what else?

GFIs went through the same process. Very limited requirements when first introduced, and you could wire a whole house with just one GFI. Now, to wire a standard dwelling, you'd better bring a half dozen to the trim.

I wonder if the '11 is going to further expand AFCI requirements. Only time will tell.

I would think the biggest market for an AFCI receptacle or deadfront device would be for extending existing circuits. For example, you want to add a receptacle, perhaps on an existing non-AFCI MWBC, so you find an existing receptacle to take the feed from, swap it out with an AFCI receptacle, and now all your new work is AFCI protected. That would avoid any violations, yes?

Cheers, Wayne

Not according to the '08 wording. Unless there's a local amendment, it's likely to create an NEC violation.

 

[brother]

This was the statement I was referring to:



AFCI's are not a new requirement to the '08. They were required in the '02 and the '05 in limited areas. That was the 'proving ground in the field' for them.

Edit to add: Yes, I can see a market for them, especially in older homes that are full of MWBCs. AFCI receps would be the solution save for AFCI 2-pole breakers. However, given the current requirement for metal raceways to the first outlet, an AFCI recep still is severly limited in usage unless you work in Chicago.

Im well aware of when AFCI'S first came into play and I think you have misinterpet the basis of my statement and are out of line to make a comment/statement of asking if I have ever wired anything according to the '02 and '05 code.

They required these devices in the '02 code without them proving themselves first unlike when they first implimented the gfcis. Thats just a fact, check it out yourself.
I just know that ive heard more complaints than 'compliments' for these devices. Something that was really pushed by the Manufactures of these things.

I stand by my statement that Im 'glad' they have decided to limit (by local amendments) the expansion of the afci's for my area. They have had alot of complaints about them tripping on vacuum cleaners, ceiling fans etc..